What is the Church's position on the Intersexed and Transsexed?

[agangbern]

Boy do you not get it! I felt I had the soul of a female. At that age I didn’t even know what a period was!

You experienced menstrual period.Meaning you have an ovary producing ova. Therefore you are female. Live and be happy with who you are.

 

[aspawloski4th]

You experienced menstrual period.Meaning you have an ovary producing ova. Therefore you are female. Live and be happy with who you are.

I guess some people just don’t get it.

 

[agangbern]

I guess some people just don’t get it.

Female is defined as follows:

Here is its definition:
fe•male (f m l )
adj.
1.
a. Of or denoting the sex that produces ova or bears young.
b. Characteristic of or appropriate to this sex; feminine.
c. Consisting of members of this sex. See Usage Note at lady.
thefreedictionary.com/female
Clearly, female is one who has ovary, for so she is suppose to be the one to produce ova. And where does the ova suppose to go? Naturally to the fallopian tube and then to the uterus.
Again, let us not make clear and simple things complicated and confusing. As you can see, X chromosome and Y chromosome are not part of the definition of “female”. So, do not insist to make the chromosomes part of the definition.

Now, you claimed that Zoe has both testes and ovary.I delved into the truth of that claim as follows:

So you are telling me now that Zoe got for himself a wife, begot a child with her, while all along he was producing ova, right? If that is what you are telling me now, then let us examine that claim with a “microscope” for truth.
First, when did Zoe submit himself to internal medical examination that confirmed he was indeed producing ova? And in what hospital or clinic?
Second, what event in his life made him decide to submit himself to such medical examination?
And third, when he married his wife, was he thinking that he was a male, a female, or what?

You failed to answer those searching questions, thus putting doubt to the veracity of your claim about Zoe. Instead you put your very self forward to support the veracity of your claim. In effect you were saying that you too have both testes and ovary.
To verify that claim, I asked if you experienced menstrual period for that would surely confirm that you have ovary. You did not answer the question categorically. For if you confirm that you really have ovary, then by the definition of female, you are female.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Female is defined as follows:

Now, you claimed that Zoe has both testes and ovary.I delved into the truth of that claim as follows:

You failed to answer those searching questions, thus putting doubt to the veracity of your claim about Zoe. Instead you put your very self forward to support the veracity of your claim. In effect you were saying that you too have both testes and ovary.
To verify that claim, I asked if you experienced menstrual period for that would surely confirm that you have ovary. You did not answer the question categorically. For if you confirm that you really have ovary, then by the definition of female, you are female.

Lets get down to brass tacks. You are defining by whats between the legs and Im defining by whats between the ears. You and I are never going to agree. You define by the outside and the physical, I define by whats on the inside and the psychological. You and I live in two totally differents worlds. Enjoy your world you live in. Its superficiality isn’t for me.

 

[agangbern]

Lets get down to brass tacks. You are defining by whats between the legs and Im defining by whats between the ears. You and I are never going to agree. You define by the outside and the physical, I define by whats on the inside and the psychological. You and I live in two totally differents worlds. Enjoy your world you live in. Its superficiality isn’t for me.

It is not my or your definition that is important here. We simply abide with what is official definition of the word as written in public document, the dictionary.

 

[aspawloski4th]

It is not my or your definition that is important here. We simply abide with what is official definition of the word as written in public document, the dictionary.

Definitions and words do change over time. If they didn’t we’d still be speaking Saxon and the people in Rome would still be speaking Latin. Language and knowlege are not stagnet things.

 

[magdelaine]

I feel that the OP’s question was a good one, and very relevant. I would like to know the answer myself.

Unfortunately, the discussion has downgraded considerably. Did any of you look up the disorders Zoe listed? They are real genetic disorders that indeed can result in women able to “father” children and men able to carry a pregnancy. In fact, I think such variations of human sexuality are a miracle of sorts.

My thoughts are that the reason that the Church has not made a proclamation on this is because permission to marry, for instance, is a matter that would most likely be handled by a local pastor or bishop.

I think that we could say that the Church would be unequivocally opposed to sexual reassignment surgery, and for good reason (it is a mutilation of what God has created, even if what has been created is a mystery and a source of confusion to the soul that inhabits it). And those that are truly ambiguous would probably be called to a celibate chastity. However, for others like Zoe? It would be enlightening to know if the Church is working on a consistent ethic in this area.

 

[agangbern]

Definitions and words do change over time. If they didn’t we’d still be speaking Saxon and the people in Rome would still be speaking Latin. Language and knowlege are not stagnet things.

Yes that is true. But are you now trying to say that the contemporary dictionary is obsolete or what? Your objection to the dictionary definition of “female” could easily be settled. Just quote here and show the link to your own definition, may it be saxon, latin or what. Just go direct to your point.

 

[LilyM]

Female is defined as follows:

Now, you claimed that Zoe has both testes and ovary.I delved into the truth of that claim as follows:

You failed to answer those searching questions, thus putting doubt to the veracity of your claim about Zoe. Instead you put your very self forward to support the veracity of your claim. In effect you were saying that you too have both testes and ovary.
To verify that claim, I asked if you experienced menstrual period for that would surely confirm that you have ovary. You did not answer the question categorically. For if you confirm that you really have ovary, then by the definition of female, you are female.

The point is that Zoe or others like her may well fit that dictionary definition of female. But I imagine the same dictionary’s definition of male would be something like ‘one who has testes, can produce sperm and father young’.

So according to your dictionary, at least some intersexed people could truly fit the definitions of BOTH male AND female, since they CAN have BOTH testest and ovaries, and can both produce sperm AND bear children! So what would your response be to such a case?

And what about cases where, as Zoe relates, some people literally, for purposes of your definitions change sex in their twenties or thirties, naturally and without any surgery or medicaiton involved? What if someone married as a male before this change, and married a female, but at a point after marriage ‘became’ female themselves?

Isn’t marriage a sacrament, till death do the married parties part, in sickness, sex change and health, etc etc? So don’t you end up with two females who are married to each other?

 

[agangbern]

The point is that Zoe or others like her may well fit that dictionary definition of female. But I imagine the same dictionary’s definition of male would be something like ‘one who has testes, can produce sperm and father young’.

So according to your dictionary, at least some intersexed people could truly fit the definitions of BOTH male AND female, since they CAN have BOTH testest and ovaries, and can both produce sperm AND bear children! So what would your response be to such a case?

And what about cases where, as Zoe relates, some people literally, for purposes of your definitions change sex in their twenties or thirties, naturally and without any surgery or medicaiton involved? What if someone married as a male before this change, and married a female, but at a point after marriage ‘became’ female themselves?

Isn’t marriage a sacrament, till death do the married parties part, in sickness, sex change and health, etc etc? So don’t you end up with two females who are married to each other?

First of all, it is not good to solve a problem whose reality is doubtful. So, if the case of Zoe is really true, please answer the questions raised in the following post:

So you are telling me now that Zoe got for himself a wife, begot a child with her, while all along he was producing ova, right? If that is what you are telling me now, then let us examine that claim with a “microscope” for truth.

First, when did Zoe submit himself to internal medical examination that confirmed he was indeed producing ova? And in what hospital or clinic?

Second, what event in his life made him decide to submit himself to such medical examination?

And third, when he married his wife, was he thinking that he was a male, a female, or what?

 

[magdelaine]

First of all, it is not good to solve a problem whose reality is doubtful. So, if the case of Zoe is really true, please answer the questions raised in the following post:

So, my first impression was correct. You did not look up any of the syndromes and genetic disorders that Zoe posted about. Regardless of whether her story is true, conditions like hers are medical fact.

It is not helpful to discuss the implications of an earth that rotates around a sun when you still believe the earth is flat.

 

[aspawloski4th]

So, my first impression was correct. You did not look up any of the syndromes and genetic disorders that Zoe posted about. Regardless of whether her story is true, conditions like hers are medical fact.

It is not helpful to discuss the implications of an earth that rotates around a sun when you still believe the earth is flat.

I could not have said that better myself.

 

[agangbern]

So, my first impression was correct. You did not look up any of the syndromes and genetic disorders that Zoe posted about. Regardless of whether her story is true, conditions like hers are medical fact.

It is not helpful to discuss the implications of an earth that rotates around a sun when you still believe the earth is flat.

It was good for the earth because it was shown by those who believe, that the earth is indeed not flat. But it is different when it comes to intersex because even believers in it do not agree in one thing of what they really call intersex. Here is how intersex is defined:

Definition Return to top
Intersex is a group of conditions where there is a discrepancy between the external genitals and the internal genitals (the testes and ovaries). nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

In this thread, the intersex we have in mind is specifically Zoe. If we get into the above definition of intersex, it is not even clear in this thread what external genital of Zoe is in discrepancy with his internal genitals. He said he has a wife and even begot a child with her. Therefore it is clear that there was no discrepancy between his external genital (penis) and his internal genital (testes). So what is now your definition of intersex?

Why don’t you simply answer my questions about Zoe? Where is Zoe now? Why is he afraid to tell the truth if indeed what he is saying about himself is truth?

 

[magdelaine]

It was good for the earth because it was shown by those who believe, that the earth is indeed not flat. But it is different when it comes to intersex because even believers in it do not agree in one thing of what they really call intersex. Here is how intersex is defined:

Definition Return to top
Intersex is a group of conditions where there is a discrepancy between the external genitals and the internal genitals (the testes and ovaries). nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

In this thread, the intersex we have in mind is specifically Zoe. If we get into the above definition of intersex, it is not even clear in this thread what external genital of Zoe is in discrepancy with his internal genitals. He said he has a wife and even begot a child with her. Therefore it is clear that there was no discrepancy between his external genital (penis) and his internal genital (testes). So what is now your definition of intersex?

Why don’t you simply answer my questions about Zoe? Where is Zoe now? Why is he afraid to tell the truth if indeed what he is saying about himself is truth?

Forget Zoe, will you? If you read her story completely you would know that she (or he??) is actually a biological male who grew up looking female. As a teen, male genitalia appeared. She had functioning gonads, but not the pipes, from what I understand. She does not have ovaries, she looks female. Why won’t you look it up? Forget it, I’ll post a link.

pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2259022

In any case, due to the lack of response on this thread, it appears that there are no answers for Zoe at this point. Which would be nice, since she *is *raising her child Catholic. (or he is rather…)

 

[Dale_M]

Where is Zoe now? Why is he afraid to tell the truth if indeed what he is saying about himself is truth?

Why would Zoe need to justify her life to you?

Zoe came here humbly asking for information. She asked with gentleness and with sincerity, opening herself up to strangers in ways which may be painful to her. She was grateful for the answers she received and thanked those who responded. I was impressed by the tenderness of the responses in the discussion.

Since that time, this thread has steeply declined in quality. It has become coarse and unedifying. I think it is a shame that the thread couldn’t have been closed once Zoe got her answers and expressed her gratitude.

 

[magdelaine]

I think it is a shame that the thread couldn’t have been closed once Zoe got her answers and expressed her gratitude.

I agree.

 

[seekerz]

You are correct in that aspect. And I do not belittle that truth you declare here. But we go to the main question hiding in this thread: Are intersexed and transsexed MALEs or FEMALEs`? The Church and God Himself declared that there are only two choices to choose from: MALE or FEMALE. And female is basically defined as one who has the organ designed to produce ova. And by elimination, one who is not female is male.

How about one who has both ovary and testes?

Life isn’t always as simple as we’d like. If we can’t understand another’s dilemma, we should simply pray for them and refrain from all else…

 

[aspawloski4th]

If anything I said contributed to the downwardness of this thread I am sorry. People like angeborn tick me off to no end. While my self I don’t have a complete total understanding of what she is going through. I do trust what she is saying and take her at face value. I do hope the early part of this thread was of help to her. My answers were an attempt to get byond the mere physical, something angeborn seems totally obsessed with. Remember we are not a body with a soul, we are a soul with a body.

 

[agangbern]

Why would Zoe need to justify her life to you?

To explain, people born with Intersex conditions have bodies that are neither 100% male nor 100% female. Transsexuality is a kind of Intersex where the neurology, the brain, is mismatched with the rest of the body, or most of the rest of the body, as Transsexuals often have other Intersex conditions too.,

Have bodies that are neither 100% male nor 100% females?

See the definition of intersex.
Definition
"Intersex is a group of conditions where there is a discrepancy between the external genitals and the internal genitals (the testes and ovaries)." nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e…cle/001669.htm

Transexuality is kind of intersex?

"However, the AIS Support Group Australia also aware of a small number of people with transsexualism who claim that transsexualism is an intersex condition. This is, quite simply, incorrect. "
home.vicnet.net.au/~aissg/transgender_and_intersex.htm

I now don’t know who among those people are talking of the truth.

 

[LilyM]

Have bodies that are neither 100% male nor 100% females?

See the definition of intersex.
Definition
"Intersex is a group of conditions where there is a discrepancy between the external genitals and the internal genitals (the testes and ovaries)." nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e…cle/001669.htm

Transexuality is kind of intersex?

"However, the AIS Support Group Australia also aware of a small number of people with transsexualism who claim that transsexualism is an intersex condition. This is, quite simply, incorrect. "
home.vicnet.net.au/~aissg/transgender_and_intersex.htm

I now don’t know who among those people are talking of the truth.

Whether or not transsexuality is or isn’t a different condition from intersex, intersex is real.

And Zoe may well have both conditions, since if she is intersexed then for her to try to fully identify as either gender would be at least somewhat out of sync with some of her physical gender characteristics and cause severe psychological problems.