Z
Zoe_Brain
Guest
What on Earth does sexual activity have to do with either transsexuality or Intersex- except as a side-issue that might be affected by IS or TS conditions?
- Status
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
Of course I’m able to agree to disagree. That, I am sure, is where this thread will end up, as I have already said I do not think anything I can say will unravel the mental construct of one who has become persuaded that his natural gender is somehow incorrect. I do not profess to any expertise in the psychological aspects of gender confusion, but suspect that it is a very deep pool indeed.
I am aware as well that particular views of sexual and gender preferences are, rather like particular views of global warming, very heavily supported by those with an interest in affecting societal attitudes and outcomes. I have not read the book you recommend and, quite frankly, am insufficiently interested in the subject matter to do so. But argumentation is a very significant part of my occupation, and I know for an absolute certainty that if one wants to do it, one can make a seemingly persuasive case for nearly anything, and can seem to employ what passes readily for scientific data in support thereof.
Suffice it to say we have, in this thread, an issue that will not be resolved here. What we have, and what we will continue to have is the question whether a subjective self-perception ought to trump objective reality in such a way that we should accept the subjective in lieu of the objective. No matter how you look at it, and no matter how many brains anyone scans for an architectual difference here or a similarity there, the reality is that every one of those brain cells is either xx or xy, except in those very rare cases in which there is a chromosomal abnormality. Further, e.g., a man who has undergone measures to appear to be a woman is not biologically a woman any more than a man surgically altered to appear in every way to be a chimpanzee would biologically be a chimpanzee. And the latter’s subjective conviction that he is, indeed, a chimpanzee born in a human body, would not alter the objective reality at all. Nor, it seems to me, is it appropriate for society to accept the man’s subjective self-identification as objective reality, even if someone found a way to identify similarities between his brain architecture and that of a chimpanzee.
P
pathia
Guest
But this very thread is about those very abnormal circumstances. You’re trying to dodge the entire point of the thread here it seems.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
No. Some are talking about one thing and some another.
As I understand the terminology used in this thread, “intersexed” is understood to mean those whose natural physiology contains mixed gender features; what used to be referred to as “true hermaphroditism”.
On the other hand, some are talking about “transsexuals” who, in the context of some posts clearly refers to those whose physiology is clearly of one gender but who think of themselves as being the other gender and consider cosmetic body changes to effect the appearance of the other gender.
Different things. I was speaking of the latter, not the former.
I do realize some would like to think of the two in the same way, just as homosexuals want to maintain that they were “born gay”. That, I do not buy into, any more than I buy into the notion that people are “born criminals”, and already said we would just have to agree to disagree about that.
P
pathia
Guest
Intersexism is more common than transsexuality. Non XY/XX chromosome arrangements are also incredibly common. The more we study genetics, the more it becomes apparent that more people than we could possibly imagine aren’t quite normal on the inside. I didn’t know about my chromosomes until I was almost full grown, my birth was attributed to Satan and/or some prescription drugs my mother took when she was pregnant. No one bothered to think or check for anything else.
There is a tremendous overlap. In college, over half the kids I met with that were also transsexual had non-standard endocrine systems and/or non-standard chromosomes. That’s WAY out of the statistical probability of just being random chance. These kids brought in their medical reports too, we compared and discussed it etc. So this wasn’t just wishful thinking or anything.
E
ethereality
Guest
It appears I misspoke, and you certainly jumped on it. There are differences between the brains of men and women, just as there are differences between the arm muscles of men and women, but the brain itself is neither male nor female, just as the muscle itself is neither male nor female.
See Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body and Christopher West’s writings on the subject. I’ve mentioned them already, haven’t I?
E
ethereality
Guest
There have been studies; this is not just my idea: What you think physically affects your brain, physically shapes it. This really follows from basic anatomy – the weight you bear on your bones shapes your bones (regions of high weight-bearing create more bone matrix, and as we constantly remodel our bones, you can actually change the shape of the bone over time, like a bow-legged cowboy from sitting on a horse for long periods of time); the strain on your muscles shapes your muscles (we call it exercise); likewise, what you do with your brain shapes your brain.
This is why pornography is so horribly addictive – in addition to the chemical ‘rewards’ and habit-forming elements, extended viewing of pornography physically affects your brain, such that you begin seeing people walking down the street in the same manner you see the people in pornography.
Ideas of gender are formed from early childhood well into adolescence and early adulthood.
M
magdelaine
Guest
Are you saying that the endocrine system of a man is not different than that of a woman? What if you have the endocrine system and physical brain structures of a woman and yet happen to have male genitalia (whether fertile or not)? Perhaps you could define “male” and “female”.
I love theology of the body, but biologically speaking there *are *individuals who do not fit neatly into male and female definitions. The Church needs to find a better response to a biological reality than “ahem…you don’t exist”.
H
hyflyer64
Guest
Brain shapping!! Zoe, this is one for you. I’m sure you have a lot more info on this than I found in a short period of time.
Ethereality, please explain to me, using the logic you’ve been using so far, why one of twin boys, raised as a girl from infancy, totaly rebelled when she/he grew up and reverted to being a man?? Heavens, she/he certainly did not look like a boy. was not raised as a boy and was never told she/he was a boy. In fact, that “she” was a girl was constantly re-enforced on an ongoing basis. “She” was transformed when undergoing a botched circumciscision. The doctor convinced the parents that that would be the best alternative for the child.
Using your logic, this child should have grown up as a well adjusted girl. Certainly, with all that positive “girl” (name removed by moderator)ut, the brain would have taken on the shape of a “girl” brain.
Also, in one of your previous posts, you flately state that you had not read a recomended book on TS issues and that you little, to no interest in the subject. And yet, you presume to post on here with your “biased opinions”, as if they had any weight whatsoever!!??
Your argument re:you can use studies etc., to support any view, is so typical of people that post on here, that do not have anything more than unfounded opinions and are not the least bit interested in becomming educated, lest their “opinions” be challanged.
My parish priest told me that I would be challenging my sanity on this site.
BTW, his interest in me and my situation is the same that it would be for any other parishioner that expressed an interest in spiritual guidance and a better understanding of their faith.
Rachel
E
ethereality
Guest
I really don’t know what you’re talking about: that’s not the Church’s response.
M
magdelaine
Guest
*We *are the Church, right? What have you said besides “it’s a psychological problem, a fetish, a sexual deviation”? That kind of response doesn’t recognize the biological reality of of intersex/transsex individuals, does it?
E
ethereality
Guest
I thought you were referring to the Magisterium, the teaching body of the Church. When someone says “the Church” in the context of a doctrine, that’s typically what’s meant.
Yes, the Church – hopefully both the Magisterium and the lay people – understands homosexuality and transsexuality to be disorders, because they are disorders. The Church has never denied that physical factors can be associated with it. Indeed, as you’ve pointed out with the intersexed, birth defects play an integral role – but they are birth defects, because as both Genesis and biology teaches us, God made us male and female; that is His plan for us. Again, that does not deny the existence of these problems, just as God’s plan for us to have sight and sound doesn’t deny the existence of the blind and deaf. Again, as Jesus tells us in the Gospel (as I’ve already mentioned), one reason these problems exist is so that God’s glory may be revealed in their healing.
P
pathia
Guest
But they tell us nothing and give us no answers, no solutions, nothing at all, ever. I’ve asked for over a decade now, and I get nothing other than mumbled explanations and 'I don’t know" and no offers to ask a higher authority. I’m sick of it.
M
magdelaine
Guest
What if someone is born with the birth defect of a hole in his or her heart? Is it not permitted to have that defect repaired with surgery? Is not God’s glory revealed in this type of healing as well?
The more I read the more scientific evidence backs up the fact that yes, we are born male and female, but sometimes gender and physical appearance don’t match. Again, this is not about behavior or sexual activity, it’s about biological anomalies.
T
Theresa_Frances
Guest
But can’t healing include modern medical treatment. With the realization that all other known treatments have failed, can’t physical confirmation of the mental gender be accomplished by hormone therapy and reassignment? I agree with you that at first these treatments seem to be an affront to the sanctity of the body. Even though I had experienced gender issues my whole life I was reluctant to even consider these steps at first because of the nature of the surgery and also the stigma placed on them by sensationalist journalism. However, when faced with looking at a lifetime of episodes of depression and anxiety caused by my gender issues, and with the counseling of professional therapists I found that, as some of the women who have responded to these threads have mentioned, I had no other option than to pursue transition. I grew up in a traditional Catholic family and was raised with those values and they are important to me. I wish I could make it clear how central to ones existence the need to live in the gender that is part of their identity is. Our concept of our gender encompasses almost every facet of our daily lives especially in interacting with others. The need to interact and to be perceived by others as a woman is central to everything that tells me who I am. My lifetime growing up is one of respecting laws and authority. I never pictured myself doing anything that would in the smallest way be contrary to moral and ethical behavior. Honestly after dealing with my issues, though some would say I have, I do not believe I have done anything disrespectful or wrong. I realize I am only running on with personal oppinion, but what I am attempting to do is to try to make you aware of how real our issues are and that we are sane and moral individuals who had to deal with an issue that I feel unless one has experienced it, they could have no real concept of the extent to which it is a real and all encompassing need to become whole in mind and body. I also realize that I have not miraculously become an xx female with the ability to conceive and bear children, although the maternal feelings are there. I know how important to the Church’s concept of morality that the possibility of conception be a necessary part of the marital act. My only response is that there are genetic women who cannot conceive. I feel I am able to be a more charitable and caring member of society now that my own issues have been addressed and my quality of life has improved.
D
Dori1
Guest
In love, and with great respect, I must offer the biological facts.
Gender is genetic. Male = XY genotype Female = XX genotype. Changing the external appearance does not change the phenotype (expression of the genotype). The defect may, indeed, be biological, but it is not in the reproductive and sexual organs. It is in the central nervous system. This, too, can be treated if appropriate research and pursuit of therapy is undertaken. This does not, however, include changing the external appearance. (Hormone therapy and sugery do not make a person, intrinsically able to function as a male or female. They simply change the external appearance and create the ability to perform the sexual acts from the perspective of the gender whose appearance is taken on. Full functioning as male or female cannot be imitated in this way (ie. reproduction).
There are certain groups, even within the scientific community whose personal bias cloud these facts, but they cannot be denied and the political views that prevent the appropriate research from being done regarding treatment options is very harmful to those afflicted with transgender identity. Medicine cannot treat a person unless they treat, appropriately, the true problem underlying the symptoms.
Z
Zoe_Brain
Guest
What she said.
Z
Zoe_Brain
Guest
sigh
Except for CAH syndrome and De La Chapelle syndrome males, who have 46xx chromosomes, and some who have fathered children.
And CAI and Swyer syndrome females, who have 46xy chromosomes, and some of whom have given birth.
And Kleinfelter syndrome males, who have 47xxy chromosomes, and some of whom have fathered children.
And Kleinfelter syndrome females, who have 47xxy chromosomes, and some of whom have given birth.
And pregnant women carrying male children, who have some 46xy cells in their blood. And mosaics, who may simultaneously have any combination on 45x, 46xx, 46xy, 47xxy, 47xyy etc etc. Chimerae too, though they are usually only 46xx and 46xy.
And… there’s hundreds of different Intersex conditions.
The literature over 55 years has shown that the following treatments have been tried. Cognitive feedback, Psychoanalysis, Psychotherapy, Psychotropic drugs, Electro-Convulsive therapy, SpiritRelease therapy, Exorcism, lobotomy, leucotomy, aversion therapy involving nauseating drugs, aversion therapy involving electric shocks to eyeballs and genitalia, aversion therapy involving severe beatings…
None of them worked. Now some people did end up “cured” in one sense. They have no gender at all. Of course, they’ve had so much brain tissue removed they can’t speak, or feed themselves, or remain continent, but they’re no longer transsexual,
It was because nothing else worked, that the patients stubbornly continued to die and not get better, that in desperation in the 50’s they tried altering the body so it matched the mind - and as we’ve since found out, the brain., They got a 98% cure rate.
It took close on 30 years for this to filter through as the only effective treatment, while other groups continued the Exorcisms, and Brain Surgery, and Torture, and mind-bending chemicals. The literature is full of such studies, and the consequent unfortunate side-effects to the patient. Most such cases attempted suicide. Many succeeded.
And yet, people with various ideological or religious beliefs still continue to try methods other than those in the Standards of Care for Transsexual patients. Because they are convinced that there really is a wild goose out there, an El Dorado, and if they just search hard enough, they’ll find it. No matter how many patients die in the interim.
Please, please read the rest of this thread. It’s obvious from your statement about chromosomes that there are certain gaps in your knowledge of biology. You know “what’s usual”, but here we’re dealing with the Un-usual, where the normal approximations don’t apply.
And then we have 5ARD and 17BHDD syndromes, where people are born looking female, but masculinise later - and some have become fathers.
All of those syndromes are relatively common. There must be 10,000 men in the USA who looked like little girls at birth, and had a “natural sex change”.
When you look at some of the rare ones - like Persistent Mullerian Duct Syndrome - you can even get self-fertilisation.
Or in other cases, less well understood, very rapid changes of appearance with attendant hormonal mode-switch and metabolic chaos,
http://www.webone.com.au/~aebrain/sextuplet0.JPG
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophie”
P
pathia
Guest
Such therapy left me a broken shell of a child, it destroyed my childhood and let do me attempting suicide as young as 9 years old.
D
Dori1
Guest
Actually, the appropriate therapies don’t exist yet, because the research hasn’t been done. There is far too much politics and far too little science involved so far. As a result, those who need real help are left with inadequate responses and therapies that are inappropriate to the underlying problem. I am sorry you were victimized by bad psychology/psychiatry. I do hope that the research that needs to be done is someday done.
- Status