What is the Church's position on the Intersexed and Transsexed?

[pathia]

Actually, the appropriate therapies don’t exist yet, because the research hasn’t been done. There is far too much politics and far too little science involved so far. As a result, those who need real help are left with inadequate responses and therapies that are inappropriate to the underlying problem. I am sorry you were victimized by bad psychology/psychiatry. I do hope that the research that needs to be done is someday done.

You can’t treat XX/XY/XXY chromosomes with psychiatry, it’s biological, internal,unalterable. I was flagged as a ‘pre-homosexual child’ with no tests, no followup, no speculation, no checking, to see if there was anything wrong internally with my gentic or endocrine system. They merely believed me to be possessed by satan and tried to cast him out.

When I was eight.

Half of the children with me in therapy are dead by their own hand, I don’ t know any who didn’t try to kill themselves at least once. I tried four times on my own before I turned 18 and got away from it.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

God loves everyone. Every one of us must see Jesus in everyone. God wants everyone in heaven.

 

[Dori1]

sigh

Except for CAH syndrome and De La Chapelle syndrome males, who have 46xx chromosomes, and some who have fathered children.
And CAI and Swyer syndrome females, who have 46xy chromosomes, and some of whom have given birth.
And Kleinfelter syndrome males, who have 47xxy chromosomes, and some of whom have fathered children.
And Kleinfelter syndrome females, who have 47xxy chromosomes, and some of whom have given birth.

And pregnant women carrying male children, who have some 46xy cells in their blood. And mosaics, who may simultaneously have any combination on 45x, 46xx, 46xy, 47xxy, 47xyy etc etc. Chimerae too, though they are usually only 46xx and 46xy.

And… there’s hundreds of different Intersex conditions.

Your post demonstrates a great deal of reading, and a considerable bias. (let’s face it, anyone who participates in such a thread has a bias one way or the other). However, I am well aware of the syndromes you mention. While they are, indeed, relatively common (meaning in relation to other syndromes which are less common), they are still rare and are considered anomalies. They are not normal conditions. They are often (though clearly not always) associated with significant developmental delays, as well as other physical abnormalities not associated with any perceived or real gender anomalies. Utilizing such conditions to discuss gender issues in the general population is not relevant. Truly, the science that has been applied to this issue so far, is soft.

 

[pathia]

Particularly as there are increasing numbers of cases of individuals who have undergone completed gender change courses only to determine that they regret the decision.

Source? I haven’t heard of an ‘increasing’ number of these, ever, there are no studies that show this. Most show regret at below 5%, which is better than the results of most medical programs for any kind of disorder. Of my personal network of several hundred, I don’t know a single person that’s reverted.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

I am confident in my knowlege of Biology and genetics. I am open to learning, even from those whose education is far less than my own. I am also open to hearing from others whose opinions differ from mine. As long as we are all respectful.

Please have a look at the presentations by Dr Veronica Drantz on the subject. And to see where I’m coming from, please have a look at Bigender and the Brain . Lots of references to primary sources rather than second-hand ones.

Utilizing such conditions to discuss gender issues in the general population is not relevant.

But the context here is specifically not the normal situation! The context is of the unusual, the anomalous, the exceptional. Please have a look at all the papers that have shown all sorts of neuroanatomical anomalies in transsexual people. Most in areas of the lymbic system, in areas where we have no good evidence for neural plasticity. It is complicated by the known effects of hormonal bath on neuroanatomy, but the experiments have for the most part dealt with that - controls included non-transsexual people treated with hormones.

Your post demonstrates a great deal of reading, and a considerable bias.

I think that no objective observer could disagree. My views are obviously coloured by my experiences, and the best thing I can do under those circumstances is to strive for objectivity, but most importantly, make my likely bias known so others can adjust for it.

There have been a number of legal suits in the past 5 years wherein the plaintiff alleges they were not adequately counselled

I know of 3 cases in the US - one of whom was 45x/46xy, 7 cases in the UK, and 2 in Australia. There has to be more than that, as the total number of treatments in those three countries is over 50,000, and it would be amazing if there was such a low failure rate. More common is the situation such as in Canada, where many patients suicide because their pathology doesn’t conform to the treating psychiatrists’ eccentric views, so are denied treatment.

I would appreciate it if you could give me the data on the subject, as I’ve only been able to find it from news reports, court transcripts, and websites of those making the allegations. I’ve also seen statements on anti-Homosexual groups websites that “most who get sex reassignment surgery regret it”, something obviously and provably false. Unless I can get the hard numbers, and since the numbers are so small, the names of the individuals, I remain sceptical of such claims from biased sources.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Actually, the appropriate therapies don’t exist yet, because the research hasn’t been done. There is far too much politics and far too little science involved so far. As a result, those who need real help are left with inadequate responses and therapies that are inappropriate to the underlying problem. I am sorry you were victimized by bad psychology/psychiatry. I do hope that the research that needs to be done is someday done.

There are a number of difficulties here.

First,.let’s step away from the problem. Let us assume that there is a dreadful condition, the “dreaded lurgy”. One that is completely resistant to treatment, and with a mortality rate exceeding 25%, with lifelong utter misery for the survivors. Every tool in the therapeutic arsenal has been tried in a haphazard manner. Then someone finds a solution that is 98% effective, except the solution causes both knees to drop off, a highly undesirable consequence. Despite this, the patients who receive this treatment report instant relief, and the deleterious side-effects of the treatment are of little consequence in comparison, by their own testimony.

Eventually, we gather significant evidence to show that the 98% effective treatment is quite possibly - and some think probably - even in theory the only effective treatment that could be.

Under those circumstances, while it would be ethical to continue with animal experimentation to investigate alternate therapies, would it be ethical to continue with human experimentation while we don’t even have an alternate theory as to the cause? Only conjectures with no evidenciary basis, and based entirely on political, religious or philosophical beliefs about what should be, not what is?

Now let’s assume that the animal experimentation continues to support the theory that no other treatment is possible - EXCEPT that there is excellent reason to believe that studies on animals cannot be considered definitive. Only experimentation on humans, especially children, will do.

No-one denies that having knees drop off is a bad thing. It would be very beneficial to find an alternate therapy, should one exist. But at what point do we stop looking? How many deaths are an acceptable price to pay in searching for a cure we have good reason to believe may not exist?

This is the situation we find with transsexuality, except there’s an even more contentious issue. Assuming we do find a method of changing someone’s mind so that they match an arbitrarily assigned gender - how do we decide what that gender should be? How do we define ,male and female in the presence of the more complicating Intersex conditions?

Should we, for example, reccomend women with CAI syndrome be given the “magic pill” that will make their gender identity male, in accordance with their chromosomes? Even though their bodies are for most intents and purposes, female? What about Swyer syndrome women, whose only chance of having children is to become pregnant. Do we recommend that they too be given the “magic pill” to make them male, in accordance with their chromosomes?

And what about those with Kleinfelters, 47xxy? Or mosaics?,

In my own case, had I been offered a “magic pill” that would make my mind male, I would have jumped at the chance. It would have meant personal extinction, the death of my personality. I didn’t consider my own existence, the worth of my tortured personality, particularly valuable. I just wanted my death to mean something, because even if my life was a meaningless joke, perhaps in death I could do something useful that would make all the suffering I’d endured meaningful. The new personality that would have been formed would have been “close enough” to being me, and would have been far happier, and effortlessly and instinctively able to fulfil his obligations as a husband, a father, and a man.

With me, it took constant effort, and although I made a pretty good job of being a decent human being, and even a reasonable father and husband, as a male I failed miserably, it was an act so poor that had I not had an obviously male body (well, with my clothes on), I wouldn’t have fooled anyone for a second.

Of course then in 2005 when I got a female puberty, I think that anyone with a male personality would have become catatonic, or suicided. I found it extremely stressful, and my sanity was precarious at best during the process. Had the change gone the wrong way (as it does for about 1 in 3 with 5ARD or 17BHDD) my sanity would certainly have snapped.

Until we can decide on really good, utterly unimpeachable grounds what should be the goal, and in all cases, even the most problematic ones, not just “the usual” - for “the usual” doesn’t have these problems,- then first, we should do no harm. And that includes harm through inaction.

 

[aspawloski4th]

sigh

Except for CAH syndrome and De La Chapelle syndrome males, who have 46xx chromosomes, and some who have fathered children.
And CAI and Swyer syndrome females, who have 46xy chromosomes, and some of whom have given birth.
And Kleinfelter syndrome males, who have 47xxy chromosomes, and some of whom have fathered children.
And Kleinfelter syndrome females, who have 47xxy chromosomes, and some of whom have given birth.

And pregnant women carrying male children, who have some 46xy cells in their blood. And mosaics, who may simultaneously have any combination on 45x, 46xx, 46xy, 47xxy, 47xyy etc etc. Chimerae too, though they are usually only 46xx and 46xy.

And… there’s hundreds of different Intersex conditions.

Your post demonstrates a great deal of reading, and a considerable bias. (let’s face it, anyone who participates in such a thread has a bias one way or the other). However, I am well aware of the syndromes you mention. While they are, indeed, relatively common (meaning in relation to other syndromes which are less common), they are still rare and are considered anomalies. They are not normal conditions. They are often (though clearly not always) associated with significant developmental delays, as well as other physical abnormalities not associated with any perceived or real gender anomalies. Utilizing such conditions to discuss gender issues in the general population is not relevant. Truly, the science that has been applied to this issue so far, is soft.

I agree with you that inappropriate therapy has been used in the past, as it was for schizophrenia, personality disorders, bipolar affective disorder and a host of other issues many of which were treated using the same “therapies” you mention. Psychiatry has not been famous for excellent research in the past. Helping a person to be whole and comfortable with the gender that God gave them is a cure. Changing the appearance of a genetic male or female to resemble the opposite gender is akin to attempting to change the appearance of a human to appear as a canine because they were unable to help that person accept that they were, indeed, a human. The brain biochemistry requires further research. As I stated in my first post, the appropriate research has yet to be done.

This is a difficult topic for all to discuss. Indeed, in the medical community the jury is still out in most forums. Standards of care are methods which are used by providers of care under reasonable conditions and are often biased and not always evidence based. Even where I trained (University of California, San Francisco) there is disagreement among the world experts. The pendulum swings. Currently, the popular wisdom is to provide gender change therapies. As research continues and society changes, the pendulum is as likely to swing back. Particularly as there are increasing numbers of cases of individuals who have undergone completed gender change courses only to determine that they regret the decision. There have been a number of legal suits in the past 5 years wherein the plaintiff alleges they were not adequately counselled (you and I both know the amount of pre-procedure counselling that goes on). Again, this discussion needs to be carried on delicately and with respect. We should not be criticizing each other’s knowledge bases, nor the decisions people have made. We should only be providing the information we have gleaned, sharing it in good faith, and recognizing that there will be differences of opinion. My background is in Biochemistry/Biophysics. I (I am ashamed to admit it) did some of the original early research in embryonic stem cell behavior, and then went on to study medicine for personal reasons. I am confident in my knowlege of Biology and genetics. I am open to learning, even from those whose education is far less than my own. I am also open to hearing from others whose opinions differ from mine. As long as we are all respectful.

I think you are talking about sex change, not gender change. Sex is between the legs and gender is between the ears The problems is so many( you too it seems) think the body defines the person and not the brain or mind. if you think the mind’s gender can be changed Iv’e got ocean front land in Nebraska to ssell you for a song. So down to brass tacks the real debate is does the mind define the person or does the body. I take the mind, hands down.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

So down to brass tacks the real debate is does the mind define the person or does the body. I take the mind, hands down.

But the mind is shaped by the brain - part of the body. Just to make life awkward

Meanwhile, on the frontiers of Science…
American Journal of Human Genetics (DOI: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2009.03.016). Issue 2704 of New Scientist magazine, page 14.

We’ve found the male gene at last, CBX2 on Chromosome 17. Everyone has a copy, both men and women, so all are potentially male. The SrY complex (usually found on the Y chromosome, but it can be elsewhere) can activate this gene, as can other complexes.

So being XY just greatly increases the odds of having masculinisation to some degree. If you’re XY, you probably have an SrY complex. Have an SrY complex, it will probably activate the CBX2 complex on chromosome 17.

Being XX greatly decreases the odds of masculinisation. No Y chromosome means you probably don’t have an SrY complex. No SrY complex means the CXB2 complex on chromosome 17 probably won’t be activated.

The deactivation or timing of activation during development in the womb, can cause all sorts of anomalies. Activate the CBX2 complex, get male genitalia, then de-activate it, get female neurology. Or the reverse. Regardless of presence or absence of a Y chromosome.

Our state of knowledge is advancing all the time - look at the publication date, this data is less than a month old. We didn’t know it when I first asked the question about the Church’s position on TS and IS. It’s a bit like the 16th century, when learned Theologians were arguing about the Earth being the centre of the Universe on theological grounds, while Astronomy was just starting up, and revealing the nature of Space.

 

[aspawloski4th]

But the mind is shaped by the brain - part of the body. Just to make life awkward

Meanwhile, on the frontiers of Science…
American Journal of Human Genetics (DOI: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2009.03.016). Issue 2704 of New Scientist magazine, page 14.

We’ve found the male gene at last, CBX2 on Chromosome 17. Everyone has a copy, both men and women, so all are potentially male. The SrY complex (usually found on the Y chromosome, but it can be elsewhere) can activate this gene, as can other complexes.

So being XY just greatly increases the odds of having masculinisation to some degree. If you’re XY, you probably have an SrY complex. Have an SrY complex, it will probably activate the CBX2 complex on chromosome 17.

Being XX greatly decreases the odds of masculinisation. No Y chromosome means you probably don’t have an SrY complex. No SrY complex means the CXB2 complex on chromosome 17 probably won’t be activated.

The deactivation or timing of activation during development in the womb, can cause all sorts of anomalies. Activate the CBX2 complex, get male genitalia, then de-activate it, get female neurology. Or the reverse. Regardless of presence or absence of a Y chromosome.

Our state of knowledge is advancing all the time - look at the publication date, this data is less than a month old. We didn’t know it when I first asked the question about the Church’s position on TS and IS. It’s a bit like the 16th century, when learned Theologians were arguing about the Earth being the centre of the Universe on theological grounds, while Astronomy was just starting up, and revealing the nature of Space.

And to think a priest told me all males are xy and all females are xx. This stuff has to start getting into biology courses at the highschool level so we don’t have such ignorance out there. also highschools have to start requiring science of this level be taken through hoghschool. some of the blame for the lack of understanding of human sex and gender is the American education system, both public and private. We are still only educatiing enough for the student top go out and work in a factory. We need to well round the kids for the 21sst century before they hit college.

 

[hyflyer64]

Hi everyone,

Well Zoe, you were right!! I could have saved my breath as far as talking to my priest went. He did want to hear my story and offered to continue talking with me. However, he had been too busy to explore getting a copy of the “secret” document or anything pertaining to it. He felt that the Curch’s position was very well defined. He had a copy of “The Sixth Commandment” from the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”, with appropriate highlighting, for me. and expressed that as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, whatever sex organs you have at birth determine your gender. It’s on your Baptismal Record and that will not be changed. Physical intersexed issues are another matter. For those of us with HBS, the Church calls us to “accept our sexual identity”.

It was suggested that Church ministries would not be appropriate for me.
I had already figured that it would be best to keep a low profile within this parish. Or just about any other for that matter.

We’ve expressed our opinions and facts for all the good it has done. I don’t see where we can accomplish anything on this site. I hadn’t expected that we would or could.
At least we did get a few people to open their minds and hearts and I did make a few friends, so that is something .
I will continue praying for those of us who are less fortunate and going to church as I have been. I don’t know what else to do.

Rachel

 

[RedGecko]

Rachel, I am saddened to hear that your priest was so rejecting. Its got to hurt.

I’ll admit to being out of my depth (being non-Catholic and all), but I wonder if simply going to a different parish would eliminate the problem? If they didn’t know you were transsexual, they wouldn’t have a reason to bar you from church ministries.

 

[magdelaine]

Hi everyone,

Well Zoe, you were right!! I could have saved my breath as far as talking to my priest went. He did want to hear my story and offered to continue talking with me. However, he had been too busy to explore getting a copy of the “secret” document or anything pertaining to it. He felt that the Curch’s position was very well defined. He had a copy of “The Sixth Commandment” from the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”, with appropriate highlighting, for me. and expressed that as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, whatever sex organs you have at birth determine your gender. It’s on your Baptismal Record and that will not be changed. Physical intersexed issues are another matter. For those of us with HBS, the Church calls us to “accept our sexual identity”.

It was suggested that Church ministries would not be appropriate for me.
I had already figured that it would be best to keep a low profile within this parish. Or just about any other for that matter.

We’ve expressed our opinions and facts for all the good it has done. I don’t see where we can accomplish anything on this site. I hadn’t expected that we would or could.
At least we did get a few people to open their minds and hearts and I did make a few friends, so that is something .
I will continue praying for those of us who are less fortunate and going to church as I have been. I don’t know what else to do.

Rachel

Don’t give up Rach. As the canon lawyer pointed out, things are NOT as clear cut as your priest would make it seem. This is going to take some education, and perhaps for you personally, a priest willing to be educated.

Things in the Church change very, very slowly, but She always recognizes Truth as it is revealed to mankind. As Zoe pointed out, the science that backs up this phenomena is very new. It will take time. Continue to pray for Christ’s Church. God’s will be done.

:hug3:

 

[hyflyer64]

Rachel, I am saddened to hear that your priest was so rejecting. Its got to hurt.

I’ll admit to being out of my depth (being non-Catholic and all), but I wonder if simply going to a different parish would eliminate the problem? If they didn’t know you were transsexual, they wouldn’t have a reason to bar you from church ministries.

It’s not a matter of a different parish it’s a matter of women being a bit more perceptive.
I pass well enogh that men don’t have a clue and a lot of women don’t either but my voice is not a very femenine voice and women will pick up on that very quickly and start looking at me questioningly. Especially someone that is musically trained.

So it wouldn’t matter where I went, sooner or later I would be outed and I would just as soon avoid that.

Rachel

 

[hyflyer64]

Don’t give up Rach. As the canon lawyer pointed out, things are NOT as clear cut as your priest would make it seem. This is going to take some education, and perhaps for you personally, a priest willing to be educated.

Things in the Church change very, very slowly, but She always recognizes Truth as it is revealed to mankind. As Zoe pointed out, the science that backs up this phenomena is very new. It will take time. Continue to pray for Christ’s Church. God’s will be done.

:hug3:

Magdelaine,

I think you “hit the nail on the head”!! “a priest willing to be educated”, however, even then what could he accomplish?? Right now I’m feeling very tired and would really like to just go off somewhere and sleep for a very long time. I also have other things that are demanding my attention.

Rachel

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Rachel, I am saddened to hear that your priest was so rejecting. Its got to hurt.

Not as much as you’d think. We don’t expect anything else.

What does get to us is when we don’t get rejected. We don’t know how to handle that. The few times it’s happened to me, I’ve dissolved into helpless sobs.

I’m not trying to gain sympathy here, just being honest. It has happened, some people can be kinder than you’d ever believe. It’s not that bad. It’s just that we’re so accustomed to the usual state of affairs of scorn, derision, and unremitting hatred that we break down when we don’t get treated that way.

Typical comments about the murder of Angie Zapata by Allen Andrade:

JOE says:
Today, 11:16:28
“MUCH RESPECT TO ALLEN ANDRADE HE INSPIRED MY NEXT TATTOO “ALL GAY THINGS MUST DIE” FREE ALLEN

Bettina says:
Today, 07:59:23
“What is happening in this world? This man was RAPED by Justin. How dare ANYONE go about their lifestyle (regardless of male or female) and lead another to believe they are who they are not! Yes, he will face his true sentence when he answers to God, who created each of us as we are, under Natural Law, not conditioned to be someone we weren’t meant to be. God bless Allen Andrade and his family. Also bless the family of the Justin, the victim, and allow them to view this situation as an example of what can happen when we go against Natural Law, the way God created us.

Strongeztman replies:
Today, 05:09:06
“I must respond to the comment prior to mine…this product of ‘Sodom and Gomorrah’ is “not a creation by my Master or Savior in any way of the means…” he was the creation of people that cognizes as you and that has enabled people as such to behavior in the way that he died. this dude received what his hand asked for!!! He deceived the wrong man this time and “HELL” his surly lifted his!!! Read the book of “Romans” and acknowledge and accept the “Laws” of God regarding 'Sexual Conduct!!!" God has not and does not alter Thee ‘Laws’ that was ascribe for us to follow for the purpose to satisfy defile desire of mankind!!!

This is not the exception, this is the norm. We’re used to it. It doesn’t bother us as much as it would you.

Letter: Support of ‘Bathroom bill’ for transgendered an outrage

‘Bathroom bill’ for transgendered an outrage

Editor, Townsman: As a constituent of Sen. Susan Tucker, D-Andover, I am appalled at her passionate support of the “Transgender Bill” - otherwise known as the “Bathroom Bill.” This bill is a travesty of our religious mores and an outrage against every decent man, woman and child in the Commonwealth.

Tucker’s attempt to disguise the true intent of this bill as protection for the civil rights of the transgendered is not honest and is an insult to our intelligence.
…
In recent months, we constituents in the Commonwealth have been outraged by criminal behavior and custom-tailored pension patronage laws. Now it seems that we have a new indignation to bear from Sen. Tucker which in essence will result in the corruption of and predatory use of our children.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Guess we should feel particularly blessed then. :sad_bye: As Isaiah 56:4-5 says we are.
I’d rather be hated than hate though. In that respect, I truly am fortunate, and in this world, not the next.

Zoe

 

[hyflyer64]

Not as much as you’d think. We don’t expect anything else.
Zoe

GREELEY, Colo. — A man who claimed he snapped before killing a transgender woman was swiftly convicted of first-degree murder and a hate crime Wednesday, April 22 for savagely beating the woman with a fire extinguisher.

Allen Andrade, 32, of Thornton, was sentenced to life in prison without parole after being convicted of killing Angie Zapata, 18. The jury deliberated for just two hours before finding Andrade guilty.

Prosecutors had argued Andrade knew for hours that Zapata was biologically male and beat her to death because he disliked gays. They said Andrade had attended a court hearing with Zapata where court officials used her legal name, Justin.

At least there was justice

 

[ethereality]

But they tell us nothing and give us no answers, no solutions, nothing at all, ever. I’ve asked for over a decade now, and I get nothing other than mumbled explanations and 'I don’t know" and no offers to ask a higher authority. I’m sick of it.

Well, I’m also on a journey to learn the truth about our bodies and our sexualities. For this reason I’m reading Theology of the Body for Beginners by Christopher West, and it is certainly a matter to pray about. Through prayer, even if I still don’t have all the answers I’d like, I have peace, and I know that God loves me, and that it’s okay for me to be me and to have the body that I do, and to live life as I am – there is nothing medically wrong with me (despite the wish of being female).

Of course, if there is something medically wrong with the person’s body, then surgery can certainly be viable and useful and good and wholesome, provided it is moral. (Like, if you have a cancerous uterus, it can be removed, for the good of health with the bad of sterility unintended. Likewise with a tubal pregnancy, and so on.)

The problem I’ve seen surface in this thread is this idea that “sex reassignment surgery” is medically sound, akin to removing a cancerous testicle. It is not. This procedure fixes nothing. It mutilates the body and is thus gravely evil, just like tubal ligations and vasectomies. It is not a procedure that fixes something like a cleft palate; rather, it is done so that the person may masquerade as something he is not. Often, fully functional genitalia and mammary glands are mutilated for such a pretense – what a horror!

Recall that we are not “spirits inside of bodies” – our bodies are a part of us. For example, read “Glorifying God in the Body”: 1 Corinthians 6.12-20. As Catholics we believe that we are not persons inside of bodies – we are body-persons. We are spirit and body combined. Death is unnatural because it rips the soul apart from the body; thus God will reunite us with our (then-glorified, then-perfected) bodies on the last day.

As for those with bodies in this life that are sterile and malformed, this is a source of joy – recall that in heaven, we are neither married nor given in marriage; such is only an earthly vocation to work for the mutual salvation of many. Blessed are those whom the Lord calls to himself sooner, with the vocation of celibacy – see Pope John Paul II’s meditation on the Transfiguration. Christopher West expounds on this idea more in Good News About Sex and Marriage, that those with vows of celibacy, priests, nuns, monks, deacons, etc., are in a since “skipping” earthly marriage, instead choosing the mystical marriage to Jesus in this life, in preparation for Heaven, where we are all one with Him, infinitely surpassing the earthly institution of marriage (as glorious as it is, for those called to it).

In a Catholic Answers podcast, 16 April 2008, Fr. Eric Bergman talks about the value of priestly celibacy. In it he addresses the false dichotomy in American culture, of either “you’ve having sex or you’re not having sex”. Rather, for Catholics, the issue is, are we being chaste, or are we not being chaste? (Chastity is defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be simply the successful integration of sexuality within the person, something to which everyone is called. That is, are you given to lustful passions of pornography, masturbation, fantasy, fornication? Or do you crucify such passions with Christ, and live according to God? For to love God is to keep his commandments.) Chastity in every situation yields life.

I hope some of this helps.

 

[hyflyer64]

Well, I’m also on a journey to learn the truth about our bodies and our sexualities. For this reason I’m reading Theology of the Body for Beginners by Christopher West, and it is certainly a matter to pray about. Through prayer, even if I still don’t have all the answers I’d like, I have peace, and I know that God loves me, and that it’s okay for me to be me and to have the body that I do, and to live life as I am – there is nothing medically wrong with me (despite the wish of being female).

The problem I’ve seen surface in this thread is this idea that “sex reassignment surgery” is medically sound, akin to removing a cancerous testicle. It is not. This procedure fixes nothing. It mutilates the body and is thus gravely evil, just like tubal ligations and vasectomies. It is not a procedure that fixes something like a cleft palate; rather, it is done so that the person may masquerade as something he is not. Often, fully functional genitalia and mammary glands are mutilated for such a pretense – what a horror!

Recall that we are not “spirits inside of bodies” – our bodies are a part of us. For example, read “Glorifying God in the Body”: 1 Corinthians 6.12-20. As Catholics we believe that we are not persons inside of bodies – we are body-persons. We are spirit and body combined. Death is unnatural because it rips the soul apart from the body; thus God will reunite us with our (then-glorified, then-perfected) bodies on the last day.

As for those with bodies in this life that are sterile and malformed, this is a source of joy – recall that in heaven, we are neither married nor given in marriage; such is only an earthly vocation to work for the mutual salvation of many. Blessed are those whom the Lord calls to himself sooner, with the vocation of celibacy – see Pope John Paul II’s meditation on the Transfiguration. Christopher West expounds on this idea more in Good News About Sex and Marriage, that those with vows of celibacy, priests, nuns, monks, deacons, etc., are in a since “skipping” earthly marriage, instead choosing the mystical marriage to Jesus in this life, in preparation for Heaven, where we are all one with Him, infinitely surpassing the earthly institution of marriage (as glorious as it is, for those called to it).

In a Catholic Answers podcast, 16 April 2008, Fr. Eric Bergman talks about the value of priestly celibacy. In it he addresses the false dichotomy in American culture, of either “you’ve having sex or you’re not having sex”. Rather, for Catholics, the issue is, are we being chaste, or are we not being chaste? (Chastity is defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be simply the successful integration of sexuality within the person, something to which everyone is called. That is, are you given to lustful passions of pornography, masturbation, fantasy, fornication? Or do you crucify such passions with Christ, and live according to God? For to love God is to keep his commandments.) Chastity in every situation yields life.

I hope some of this helps.

I pray that prayer will sustain you. I pray that you’ll be spared that moment when out of the blue, the thought comes to you, “I can’t do this anymore!!”.
Because at that moment you’ll realize that it was not a “wish to become female” but the fact that you are female!! I gaurantee that it will be one of the worst moments of your life and I pray to God that in an effort to live a “normal” Catholic life that you didn’t do something stupid like having a family.
I don’t know what else to say to you!?
God bless.

Rachel

 

[pathia]

The problem I’ve seen surface in this thread is this idea that “sex reassignment surgery” is medically sound, akin to removing a cancerous testicle. It is not. This procedure fixes nothing. It mutilates the body and is thus gravely evil, just like tubal ligations and vasectomies. It is not a procedure that fixes something like a cleft palate; rather, it is done so that the person may masquerade as something he is not. Often, fully functional genitalia and mammary glands are mutilated for such a pretense – what a horror!.

None of that applies to me, mine do not function, I am sterile and completely impotent as both sexes straight from birth. God made me this way, mixed at birth, then doctors mutilated me in my infancy because they thought it was sound medicine.

I have lived with my partner for going on towards a decade now. You are asking me to abandon him?

 

[ethereality]

hyflyer64, the situation you suppose will not occur, because I am male, not female. A disordered envy of the female body resulting in part from a misunderstanding of my own in no way implies that I am “actually female” – I am quite actually male. I am simply effeminate, and as we know, God does not constrain us to limited gender roles.

Also, on Divine Mercy Sunday, Jesus answered my prayer for his help to live as the chaste Catholic man he intends for me to be – how wonderful! I have also found that daily prayer of the Rosary counters the sinful habit I formerly had of engaging in lustful internet fantasy (as an escape), and exercising, developing my body, is a good path for self-exploration, self-awareness, self-discovery. (Again, we are not persons inside of bodies: we are body-persons, spirits combined with bodies. Not one exclusively, but both mutually.)

I have lived with my partner for going on towards a decade now. You are asking me to abandon him?

Absolutely not – God calls us all to leave chaste lives, and I have no reason for presuming you aren’t. If I were you, I would speak with my spiritual director (local priest, etc.) concerning my situation, if I had any uncertainty. There’s nothing wrong with:

• two men living together chastely.
• two women living together chastely.
• a married couple living together chastely.

In the case of marriage, a spiritual director would be good for addressing the ambiguity of whether you can perform the marital embrace, which I think is necessary for a sacramental marriage: they must be open to life; that is, they cannot be necessarily closed to life, as homosexual relations are. (Note that fertility is not necessary for a sacramental marriage – the issue of the marital embrace concerns the natural order and natural law, not fertility, which is a blessing of God.)

The tricky thing is, of course, living chastely, given that our media and popular culture has given itself over to the devil. I can imagine temptations to engage in anal intercourse, etc., which is intrinsically disordered. The Catechism, of course, lays out Church doctrine concerning sodomy and homosexual relations, neither of which are necessary for a loving communion of two persons (e.g., Jonathan and David in the Old Testament). In fact, a perfectly loving communion necessarily excludes sodomy and homosexual relations.