What is the "Crisis"?

[elt1956]

I can’t speak for others, but my frame of reference is concern from seeing things that run contrary to what I’ve been taught (or learned on my own, if there’s no formal liturgical catechesis offered). When I read one thing and see something else (not just different but opposed), I might be surprised. When I see many such things in a single celebration, I become alarmed. And when I see them happening with regularity, I find it hard to be silent. I don’t always handle myself appropriately in these cases. But the fact remains that the longer I see an issue unresolved, the more restless I become. Sometimes I initiate dialog directly; sometimes I present the issue to a mediator, like my pastor (since that particular issue had to do with the practices of regularly-scheduled visiting priests at our parish). Of course, it is never right for us to “place [our]selves as authorities on Church teaching above” our deacons, priests, or bishops, but all the Catholic faithful have liturgical rights and should exercise them with due charity when they are aware of abusive or questionable practices.

I agree we need to enter into dialog with the “spirit of unity and understanding”, but we also need to seek mutual victory. If we simply focus on what is already unifying and overlook existing division, it’s a false unity. (This is especially true in the realm of ecumenism, as Pope John Paul II explained in his encyclical Ut Unum Sint, n. 36: “Full communion of course will have to come about through the acceptance of the whole truth into which the Holy Spirit guides Christ’s disciples. Hence all forms of reductionism or facile “agreement” must be absolutely avoided. Serious questions must be resolved, for if not, they will reappear at another time, either in the same terms or in a different guise.” He makes a similar point in n. 97 when he talks about the acceptance of the ministry and primacy of Peter as “an essential requisite of full and visible communion”. The documents of the Second Vatican Council that deal with unity, such as Lumen Gentium and Unitatis Redintegratio, say the same thing.) In practical terms, this means approaching a divisive issue in charity and respect, but seeking a resolution to the issue and not a fruitless dialog. Overemphasis on existing unity and underemphasis on potential (un-realized) unity can lead to laxity in those realms that currently enjoy unity, resulting in further discord.

Oh my Gosh. Victory you know where is what you know who (not Voldemort) wants. And where is that gettin us poor mortals.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

The fastest way to have a Priest “tune you out”, is to show up at his office with a “witness”.

The lack of charity and understanding displayed by many parishoners is appalling. To paraphrase a prior post, it would appear that many parishoners have placed themselves as authorities on Church teaching, above parish Priests, Bishops, and even on occasion, The Holy Father himself.

As I stated on one of my original posts on CAF, if we were to discuss issues here, or in our parishes with a spirit of unity and understanding, rather than seeking “victory”, a more productive parish environment would result.

Fr. T

Father T,

I did show up at his office without a witness only to have him almost call the police on me. Now anyone here can say . “well maybe you deserved it” because I didn’t have a witness. The fact is he could have ruined my reputation in the community. I only say this because I see it as a true threat in general… I went with a kind attitude that day but without a witness i would never be able to prove it. The result was I learned to see that the Priest was
an administrator who was not really concerned with me as a person, sister in Christ,… I think this is why a lot of laity are rather
of the opinion that the Priesthood of today has become like the Priesthood of Christ’s day in many ways. If you are not like that then that is wonderful, but many Priests will look the other way and protect their fellow Priest brother even if they are psychologically or theologically abusing their Parishoners… and that is not really being a friend to them either.

So this Holy Thursday when the traditional feet washing ceremony occurs I hope it is not just a ceremony with superficial
sentiments about serving others. I hope the parishoners you are serving are not just the ones who fit into your way of thinking and doing things and that when others have concerns that you truly try to listen to those concerns with charity as Christ would.

As it is now in that Parish they have a new Jesuit Pastor who is not using the Nicean Creed on Sundays…he just makes up one, and he changes the words of the consecration in subtle ways. Is it allright to complain about that? But I won’t complain…because I have learned there is no one to compain to and I am alone and I have changed Parishes. Which is probably what these people wanted all along anyway.But I truly wonder in my heart if the masses there are licit anymore. And I reralize that if it could happen there it could happen at any parish… And when Priests can use the power of the Police to just remove troublesome people who want to discuss concerns, then they have placed themselves in a position of authority that is abusive.
God Bless you…I do pray for priests.

MaryJohnZ

 

[japhy]

Oh my Gosh. Victory you know where is what you know who (not Voldemort) wants. And where is that gettin us poor mortals.

Could you be little more clear? What in my post (other than the word “victory”) are you responding to? What are you trying to say? I honestly cannot tell. I thought I was being straightforward in my statement.

Could everyone in this thread increase their charity levels? (Perhaps a rosary would help.) And could people respond to the contents of the posts and not launch ad hominem attacks (such as accusing people on this forum for allowing the sex scandals to occur)?

Let me start over.

Cat said:

I think the “crisis” in the Catholic Church is that too many Catholic laypeople are trying to do the work of the Christ-appointed Pope and the Church-ordained Clergy by interpreting Scriptures, restating church doctrine, and insisting upon certain church practices according to their OWN preferences rather than simply obeying the dictums of the Holy Father and the Holy Mother Church.

I’m sure there are people who behave like that, but on both sides of the fence, Cat. There are people who insist on hand-holding during the Our Father, people who want EMHCs at every Mass, priests who enjoy a “freedom” from the liturgical texts which is not their right, and bishops who responded to Summorum Pontificum by attempting to maintain regulation of the Extraordinary Form of Mass. But then there are people who attack those who lift their hands during the Our Father, who will not even receive Holy Communion from someone other than a priest or deacon, who demand that a priest use a particular option when the choice is the priest’s, and who won’t attend the Ordinary Form of Mass at all (either because they believe it itself is defective, or that any celebration of it is likely to be defective).

But the problem is not that people desire liturgical catechesis, nor that they (rightfully) expect adherence to liturgical norms and rubrics, nor that they seek to resolve a (perceived) liturgical issue with a priest or deacon. But it is a problem when abuses and improper practices are allowed to continue unabated, because as I said before, “Overemphasis on existing unity and underemphasis on potential (un-realized) unity can lead to laxity in those realms that currently enjoy unity, resulting in further discord.”

And Fr. Tom said:

The lack of charity and understanding displayed by many parishoners is appalling. To paraphrase a prior post, it would appear that many parishoners have placed themselves as authorities on Church teaching, above parish Priests, Bishops, and even on occasion, The Holy Father himself. As I stated on one of my original posts on CAF, if we were to discuss issues here, or in our parishes with a spirit of unity and understanding, rather than seeking “victory”, a more productive parish environment would result.

I don’t want to repeat myself too much here, but my response is the same. “I agree we need to enter into dialog with the ‘spirit of unity and understanding’, but we also need to seek mutual victory. If we simply focus on what is already unifying and overlook existing division, it’s a false unity.” In other words, conflict resolution is not about being oblivious to the conflict, it’s about reaching a solution. Consider a priest who feels it’s his prerogative to change the words of Mass at leisure and a parishioner who wishes to confront him (charitably) on the issue. If the “resolution” is simply that the parishioner leaves for a more orthodox parish and the priest goes on improvising through his Masses, that’s not a resolution, that’s not mutual victory. Mutual victory can mean that both sides compromise, but it can also mean that one side must recognize their error and grow from the experience, thus gaining a benefit from the resolution.

 

[Auntie_M]

I am a Catholic convert of 5 years now. I love the faith, it doesn’t have to be Latin, It doesn’t have to be in English. I have been told by a “Latin Mass” “expert” that the “new mass” was not Catholic.
Well, as far as I am concerned, it’s definitely NOT Protestant. I hear the same words spoken in English as translated in the "62 missal. I visited a Latin Mass which I later found to be FSSP, it was very formal, nice, but I didn’t understand it all, I felt left out.
I also visited a SSPX mass (my daughter goes to these) and I felt
very scared and evil all around. I have been told, you can’t go by your feelings, but It was my FEELings that brought me to the Catholic faith. I have seen some very weird things going on in an SSPX church that I felt were NOT Catholic or Protestant. Has anybody ever seen a “computer bashing” in any Catholic or Protestant church? I saw one in the SSPX church. Also HEARD the priest bragging about having the “Vatican on the run” talking about before the moto propio.
I’m sorry that alot of people feel the church is not Catholic anymore, But I will never go back to a protestant church. I will remain faithful to the ONE church where the Chair of Peter STILL sits. If there is anything wrong with it, Let God fix it, HE will.

 

[Father_Tom]

Good morning to all !

I thank you all for your messages, public and private.

For those of you who asked, I am the Pastor of two parishes in the Deep South, one of which has a Catholic School.

The school, like most, scratches and claws to get by, but the Lord always comes through for us.

Prior to my current assignment, I was Pastor at several other parishes in the Deep South, along with Diocesan duties.

I will be 72 this month. It is my wish to go to Jerusalem upon retirement, which is at least another 4 years away. I travel to the Holy Land, at least once a year, and organize groups of the Faithful to make those trips.

Time to go unlock the Church for Morning Mass.

Again, thanks to all of you for your comments.

Fr. T

 

[catharina]

Hey, Fr. Tom -
Don’t you DARE excuse your clerical brothers from their own arrogance and know-it-all attitude.

It’s a given that I won’t be “getting it” from any post that opens with “Hey, Father - DON’T YOU DARE … .” That’s an opener that’s far removed from charity. Priest-bashing: the latest form of “guidance” from an “educated laity?”

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Could you be little more clear? What in my post (other than the word “victory”) are you responding to? What are you trying to say? I honestly cannot tell. I thought I was being straightforward in my statement.

Could everyone in this thread increase their charity levels? (Perhaps a rosary would help.) And could people respond to the contents of the posts and not launch ad hominem attacks (such as accusing people on this forum for allowing the sex scandals to occur)?

Let me start over.

Cat said:
I’m sure there are people who behave like that, but on both sides of the fence, Cat. There are people who insist on hand-holding during the Our Father, people who want EMHCs at every Mass, priests who enjoy a “freedom” from the liturgical texts which is not their right, and bishops who responded to Summorum Pontificum by attempting to maintain regulation of the Extraordinary Form of Mass. But then there are people who attack those who lift their hands during the Our Father, who will not even receive Holy Communion from someone other than a priest or deacon, who demand that a priest use a particular option when the choice is the priest’s, and who won’t attend the Ordinary Form of Mass at all (either because they believe it itself is defective, or that any celebration of it is likely to be defective).

But the problem is not that people desire liturgical catechesis, nor that they (rightfully) expect adherence to liturgical norms and rubrics, nor that they seek to resolve a (perceived) liturgical issue with a priest or deacon. But it is a problem when abuses and improper practices are allowed to continue unabated, because as I said before, “Overemphasis on existing unity and underemphasis on potential (un-realized) unity can lead to laxity in those realms that currently enjoy unity, resulting in further discord.”

And Fr. Tom said:
I don’t want to repeat myself too much here, but my response is the same. “I agree we need to enter into dialog with the ‘spirit of unity and understanding’, but we also need to seek mutual victory. If we simply focus on what is already unifying and overlook existing division, it’s a false unity.” In other words, conflict resolution is not about being oblivious to the conflict, it’s about reaching a solution. Consider a priest who feels it’s his prerogative to change the words of Mass at leisure and a parishioner who wishes to confront him (charitably) on the issue. If the “resolution” is simply that the parishioner leaves for a more orthodox parish and the priest goes on improvising through his Masses, that’s not a resolution, that’s not mutual victory. Mutual victory can mean that both sides compromise, but it can also mean that one side must recognize their error and grow from the experience, thus gaining a benefit from the resolution.

AGREED!!! Thre problem I have run into is that in the Parish where the Priest is now willing to change words here and there in the consecration and do away with the Nicean Creed…that is the Parish where they will yell loudest “Obedience” to a lay person and then continue to be disobedient where they want to. This Parish also has one of the poorest records in promoting the Pro-life message as well…it just is what I would call a liberal Parish.
I want obedience…I want to be obedient, I want to know that the church I attend practices obedience as well. It is so easy for all the small acts of disobedience to snow ball into the final betrayal
of Judas. So if any Priest out there think it isn’t important to keep the church traditional I hope they will re-think that and just be charitable enough to listen to someone who is asking about something. If you have good reasons and explanations and can show that what you are doing is in keeping with the Church then there shouldn’t be any problem resolving things.

I saw a presentation by Father Tom Entenaur of Human Life International and he said that whenever Satan takes over something he tends to make it into a fortress…unapproachable…guarded…
and Priests who use the local police to get rid of troublesome people asking pertinent questions are creating fortresses. They are putting up walls and they are causing disunity although it may seem that they are just protecting unity.

I couldn’t help but reflect on this again this Lent, how the small acts of disobedience are tearing Christ’s church apart.

God Bless, MaryJohnZ

 

[japhy]

the Parish where they will yell loudest “Obedience” to a lay person and then continue to be disobedient where they want to. … I want obedience…I want to be obedient, I want to know that the church I attend practices obedience as well.

I agree that it is difficult to understand (or respect) a call for obedience from a person (or parish) that is disobedient. Just the question of whether I can (or should) in good conscience obey a directive during Mass that is disobedient – such as to purify the sacred vessels, or to stand up around the altar, or sing something in place of the Agnus Dei, etc. – can give people a headache!

I feel the same way you do: I want obedience (not to me, to the Church!). I want to obey my pastor, and my bishop, and the bishop of Rome: I should be able to obey all three at the same time. This is made difficult when parishes (or dioceses) become their own little Catholic enclaves, instead of honoring and obeying directives from Rome and retaining and promoting Catholicity – that is, universality.

 

[peary]

AGREED!!! Thre problem I have run into is that in the Parish where the Priest is now willing to change words here and there in the consecration and do away with the Nicean Creed…that is the Parish where they will yell loudest “Obedience” to a lay person and then continue to be disobedient where they want to. This Parish also has one of the poorest records in promoting the Pro-life message as well…it just is what I would call a liberal Parish.
I want obedience…I want to be obedient, I want to know that the church I attend practices obedience as well. It is so easy for all the small acts of disobedience to snow ball into the final betrayal
of Judas. So if any Priest out there think it isn’t important to keep the church traditional I hope they will re-think that and just be charitable enough to listen to someone who is asking about something. If you have good reasons and explanations and can show that what you are doing is in keeping with the Church then there shouldn’t be any problem resolving things.

I saw a presentation by Father Tom Entenaur of Human Life International and he said that whenever Satan takes over something he tends to make it into a fortress…unapproachable…guarded…
and Priests who use the local police to get rid of troublesome people asking pertinent questions are creating fortresses. They are putting up walls and they are causing disunity although it may seem that they are just protecting unity.

I couldn’t help but reflect on this again this Lent, how the small acts of disobedience are tearing Christ’s church apart.

God Bless, MaryJohnZ

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Good morning to all !

I thank you all for your messages, public and private.

For those of you who asked, I am the Pastor of two parishes in the Deep South, one of which has a Catholic School.

The school, like most, scratches and claws to get by, but the Lord always comes through for us.

Prior to my current assignment, I was Pastor at several other parishes in the Deep South, along with Diocesan duties.

I will be 72 this month. It is my wish to go to Jerusalem upon retirement, which is at least another 4 years away. I travel to the Holy Land, at least once a year, and organize groups of the Faithful to make those trips.

Time to go unlock the Church for Morning Mass.

Again, thanks to all of you for your comments.

Fr. T

And I was getting ready to leave this morning for daily mass with the added hour of driving time away from my home because the local church just has communion services on Mondays and Tuesdays and because I no longer feel comfortable there.
How much has the tendency to separate people out according to how traditional they are into different parishes which are often far from their homes hurt the Church? If we were all one Church with unity of belief and practice and obedience to the Magesterium people would not be split up and need to travel further to be in a Parish where they felt comfortable.

Would it be hard for you to say to me Father," I am sorry that priest did that to you?" Is it so hard to realize lay people are being hurt and most of us never hear anything from a Priest that comes close to a recognition that sometimes they are in the wrong in that area.

It is hard being a parent these days, but I admit when I am wrong at times with my kids…and I would never give pardon to parental abuses simple because parenting is a hard job.

I have every respect for the Priesthood and I love the holy Priests I do meet… I pray for Christ to really shine in His Priests. May you be Blessed Father T for the years of service to Mother Church and may you pray for Christ Love toward the laity become a true, fully realized aspect of every Priesthood.

God Bless, maryJohnZ

 

[pnewton]

Forgive me if this has already been posted in this thread.

I think the “crisis” in the Catholic Church is that too many Catholic laypeople are trying to do the work of the Christ-appointed Pope and the Church-ordained Clergy by interpreting Scriptures, restating church doctrine, and insisting upon certain church practices according to their OWN preferences rather than simply obeying the dictums of the Holy Father and the Holy Mother Church.

I do not know if this had been said, but I believe you are mostly right. More to the point, to set one self up as authority over the Holy Father requires extraordinary reason. Enter “Crisis.” Lefebvre started claiming an emergency existed and many others have followed suit. It is the same thing that drives the media and big government; promoting the concept of crisis to justify their existence.

 

[latinmasslover]

The crisis in the Church today is that Catholics have decided to study modern papal commentary versus constant Church teaching and holy traditions. They make every statement from the mouth of the Pope infallible Gospel. Let’s get real people! This is the Catholic Church, not Nazi Germany! When there’s a problem, we don’t ignore it. Honestly, Catholics today are resembling Mormons more and more. God does not change, no one (not even the Pope) can change the meaning of the words of God. Believe it or not, he does not have unlimited authority. “I did what I was ordered to do.” Does this ring a bell, anyone? How about: “All that evil needs to flourish is for good men to do nothing.”

Of course, it probably is better to just ignore the problem…it’ll go away in time.

 

[pnewton]

. They make every statement from the mouth of the Pope infallible Gospel. Let’s get real people! This is the Catholic Church, not Nazi Germany! …
Of course, it probably is better to just ignore the problem…it’ll go away in time.

I do not know how Nazi’s figure in, but they sure come up a lot. BTW - What problem are you talking about? The point of this thread is not breast-beating about crisis, but defining it. In other words, say “Crisis! Crisis!” over and over does not make it so.

 

[peary]

I do not know how Nazi’s figure in, but they sure come up a lot. BTW - What problem are you talking about? The point of this thread is not breast-beating about crisis, but defining it. In other words, say “Crisis! Crisis!” over and over does not make it so.

Sometimes it’s like yelling “Fire! Fire!” in a crowded theatre when there isn’t any.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I do not know if this had been said, but I believe you are mostly right. More to the point, to set one self up as authority over the Holy Father requires extraordinary reason. Enter “Crisis.” Lefebvre started claiming an emergency existed and many others have followed suit. It is the same thing that drives the media and big government; promoting the concept of crisis to justify their existence.

I believe the crisis in the church is very much like the crisis in the church before the Protestant Reformation. Since Lay People have limited say in the way things are run and done I would say it goes back to Church leadership gone awry… Now there are plenty of good Priests, and I do not doubt that Priests are attacked four fold over any lay person, none the less, the holiness of the lay people primarily sprimgs from the example and tone set by their leaders.

Pray for priests as they have so much responsibility…and pray for families because parents need to pass the faith on to their children…

MaryJohnZ

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

The first thing anyone who really wants to understand what’s been going on in the Church since V2 should read Malachi Martin’s “faction” “novel” Windswept House.

 

[latinmasslover]

I do not know how Nazi’s figure in, but they sure come up a lot. BTW - What problem are you talking about? The point of this thread is not breast-beating about crisis, but defining it. In other words, say “Crisis! Crisis!” over and over does not make it so.

I did define it: The crisis in the Church today is that Catholics have decided to study modern papal commentary versus constant Church teaching and holy traditions. They make every statement from the mouth of the Pope infallible Gospel.

My previous post was more of a response to yours and Cat’s (see post #211).

I’m rather disgusted that many (not all) like to blame the problems in the Church on the traditional Catholics who believe/do nothing *less *than what the Church has always taught/done. Spreading the message of Jesus Christ as taught through His Bride the Church, not a watered down, universal age of aquarias theme. Devotion at Mass, reverence for the clergy, being informed of Church doctrine, Scripture, and the Saints.

When these people are bashed by the (dare I say) majority of Catholics, that ought to tip people off.

 

[Cat]

Please allow me to say that my definition of the crisis definitely works both ways. Some Catholics insist that time stopped for Catholics back in the 5th Century, while others insist that we need to trash all of history and do our own things.

The Church, thank God, has kept to the straight and narrow path while continued to grow to maturity.

 

[peary]

I did define it: The crisis in the Church today is that Catholics have decided to study modern papal commentary versus constant Church teaching and holy traditions. They make every statement from the mouth of the Pope infallible Gospel.

My previous post was more of a response to yours and Cat’s (see post #211).

I’m rather disgusted that many (not all) like to blame the problems in the Church on the traditional Catholics who believe/do nothing *less *than what the Church has always taught/done. Spreading the message of Jesus Christ as taught through His Bride the Church, not a watered down, universal age of aquarias theme. Devotion at Mass, reverence for the clergy, being informed of Church doctrine, Scripture, and the Saints.

When these people are bashed by the (dare I say) majority of Catholics, that ought to tip people off.

 

[pnewton]

I did define it: The crisis in the Church today is that Catholics have decided to study modern papal commentary versus constant Church teaching and holy traditions. They make every statement from the mouth of the Pope infallible Gospel.

So it is a question of study materials. Do you think papal encyclicals should not be read, or do you refer to the Catechism. The reason I ask is that the CCC has massive amount of references, in almost every sentence, to the the past 2000 years of Church history.

BTW, I never blamed any problem on traditionalists. Most are good, faithful Catholics. I do think some have chosen a path outside of the Catholic Church. Likewise, many liberal Catholics have done the same. On the other hand, while I see problems in the Catholic Church as there have been forever, I do think the use of “Crisis” is contrived.