What is the "Crisis"?

[stmaria]

BTW, I never blamed any problem on traditionalists. Most are good, faithful Catholics. I do think some have chosen a path outside of the Catholic Church. Likewise, many liberal Catholics have done the same. On the other hand, while I see problems in the Catholic Church as there have been forever,

I do think the use of “Crisis” is contrived.

“I am convinced that** the crisis **in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy, which at times has even come to be conceived of etsi Deus non daretur: in that it is a matter of indifference whether or not God exists and whether or not He speaks to us and hears us. But when the community of faith, the world-wide unity of the Church and her history, and the mystery of the living Christ are no longer visible in the liturgy, where else, then, is the Church to become visible in her spiritual essence? Then the community is celebrating only itself, an activity that is utterly fruitless. And, because the ecclesial community cannot have its origin from itself but emerges as a unity only from the Lord, through faith, such circumstances will inexorably result in a disintegration into sectarian parties of all kinds - partisan opposition within a Church tearing herself apart. This is why we need a new Liturgical Movement, which will call to life the real heritage of the Second Vatican Council.”
Cardinal Ratzinger Milestones p. 149.

 

[pnewton]

“. This is why we need a new Liturgical Movement, which will call to life the real heritage of the Second Vatican Council.”
Cardinal Ratzinger Milestones p. 149.

This quote, for those that might not understand the context, was from a memoir book the Cardingal wrote covering his life from 1927-1977. Here is another earlier quote:

The second great event at the beginning of my years in Regensburg was the publication of the Missal of Paul VI, which was accompanied by the almost total prohibition, after a transitional phase of only half a year, of using the missal we had had until then. I welcomed the fact that now we had a binding liturgical text after a period of experimentation that had often deformed the liturgy.

One could go a read the quotes from this book or others posted in such websites as www.latin-mass-society.org, but one would better serve the interest of truth by reading the whole thing and not just excerpts that favor one agenda or another. For example, if you thought the quote above is dismissive of the TLM missal, the very next line is:

But I was dismayed by the prohibition of the old missal, since nothing of the sort had ever happened in the entire history of the liturgy.

See what selective quoting can do? In any case, I do not see what this has to do with the topic at hand. It is a dated and limited statement.

 

[latinmasslover]

So it is a question of study materials. Do you think papal encyclicals should not be read, or do you refer to the Catechism. The reason I ask is that the CCC has massive amount of references, in almost every sentence, to the the past 2000 years of Church history.

BTW, I never blamed any problem on traditionalists. Most are good, faithful Catholics. I do think some have chosen a path outside of the Catholic Church. Likewise, many liberal Catholics have done the same. On the other hand, while I see problems in the Catholic Church as there have been forever, I do think the use of “Crisis” is contrived.

Of course papal encyclicals should be studied, but the recent writings of the Pope are often substituting sound Catholic doctrine. It’s pretty obvious that no traditional Catholic is going to say we shouldn’t be informed of papal writings, as we quote them left and right. And the CCC does have many references (that’s the main reason that I, personally, read it), though some of the wording is a little watered down/ambiguous.

I never said that you blame traditional Catholics; I apologize if I gave that impression. However, many do. We’re labeled schismatic and heretic, and why? For not agreeing with the Pope, period. There are exceptions, some flat out hate the Pope and speak against him every chance they have, which is no doubt putting them in a state of, to use modern language, *serious *sin.

I really don’t understand how you can believe that the Church is not in a crisis. Liturgical abuse, shortage of *true *vocations, religious Orders that have grown lazy and stray from their Rule (and “legally” for that matter), Church teachings being downplayed to suit Protestants, Jews, Moslems, Science…the World. I’m not saying that these problems were nonexistent before, but they’re rampant now. The spirit of the world has infiltrated the Church to the very top. Thank God Pope Benedict is facing up to the problems instead of trying to sweep them under the rug. Admitting that there are problems is very humbling, but as an earlier pope said (I can’t recall which one): it’s better that scandal should arise than that truth remain hidden.

The German Shepherd is supreme among all domesticated canines…and in appointing a German Shepherd over the Church, I think that’s God’s way of telling us that things will be getting better and fast.

 

[pnewton]

I really don’t understand how you can believe that the Church is not in a crisis.

Maybe it is a linguistic issue. I recognize certain critical problems in the Church today, of course. I also realize that the Church has always faced some critical issues. For example, I recognize that the sex abuse scandal was a public relataions “crisis.” But at the same time I think that it did not represent a crisis to the Church. That is why I see that the word is often more a rhetorical device, especially when used in a general sense (e.g. “The Church is in crisis”).

On the more general note, I do respect the role that traditionalist play, especially in this fast-paced modern era. As I see it, you are like the human analogy to Latin, keeping an historical standard by which all change need be measured.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

We have gone over a lot of the different signs of the crisis from:

1. growing lack of faith in the Real Presence and break down of the liturgy because people are not really believing that God hears prayers and is real, so the liturgy become more “community focused”
2. Disobedience to Church in liturgy and life style choices by some of the layity and some Priests
3. Laxity in the practice of devotions, use of sacramentals, which can help make our homes and work places places of grace
4. Laxity in going to confession on a regular basis to keep individual consciences clear
5. Poor education programs that fail to transmit the traditions and
   depth of our faith
6. Thinking that new doctrines somehow replace old ones (not true but some seem to think that)
7. Decline in religious vocations. Decline in authentic Catholic family life…

We can talk about each separate thing for hours and feel totally lost but I believe we are on the verge of a change and I do believe that perhaps the degree to which we have descended into this darkness will be countered by the realization that we have a beautiful Mother in Mary and God will renew within us His own love for her and through our realization that she is our Advocate and a new humility and desire to belong to her we will find healing and hope. Through Mary we will be given new eyes of faith and hearts that are open to receive God.

FEBRUARY 11th of this year the Cardinals proposed the Fifth Marian Dogma of Mary’s Universal Motherhood and John Bosco’s dream predicted that the Pope would take up a banner with
From the “200 day March” prophesy":

*At that moment two angels appeared, bearing a banner which they presented to the Supreme Pontiff, saying: “Take the banner of her who battles and routs the most powerful armies on earth. Your enemies have vanished; with tears and sighs your children plead for your return.”

"One side of the banner bore the inscription: ‘Queen conceived without sin’ and the other side read: ‘Help of Christians.’*

February 11th…Lourdes where Mary called herself the Immaculate Conception and the fifth Dogma will proclaim her Universal Motherhood and her Mediatrix of All Graces… I believe this is the banner the Pope needs to win this battle.I believe it completes the dream by completing the other side of the banner in John Bosco’s prophecy!.
I am looking so forward to this victory!

God will use this church crisis to more perfectly connect us to His Mother.
If I am off topic, sorry…

God Bless, maryJohnZ

 

[japhy]

FEBRUARY 11th of this year the Cardinals proposed the Fifth Marian Dogma of Mary’s Universal Motherhood

Slow down. Five Cardinals proposed it, not “the Cardinals”. From their document (English translation):In an effort to enhance the ecumenical mission of the Church, and to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all its fullness, we, the undersigned cardinals and bishops who have convened in the favored Marian Shrine of Fatima (May 3-7, 2005), wish to express to you, Most Holy Father, our united hope and desire for the solemn papal definition of the doctrine of the Church regarding Mary Most Holy as the Spiritual Mother of all humanity, the Co-redemptrix with Jesus the Redeemer, Mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one Mediator, and Advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race.
Just want to make sure we’re all on the same page here.

 

[mgrfin]

"
Milestones p. 149.

I am sure it makes sense to educated, intelligent, knowledgeable adults that the problem in the Church was caused by changing the Liturgy into the vernacular so people could better understand it?

This makes no sense. I fully expect a liturgical renewal somewhere down in the future, but that is not Communion on the tongue and kneeling that will considered a renewal or renovation. Adults do not see the implication or weight of any of these things. They are purely incidental to the Eucharistic celebration.

A new liturgical renovation will be a totally new rite, which will not make you happy at all, since it will probably do away with the Mass you think is so vital. Use of latin is less and less and will continue to diminish.

Change breeds change.

Get behind the Spirit of Vatican 2, and pray for the unity of all Christians: Ut Unam Sint.

prayer and charity to all who post here.

peace

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Slow down. Five Cardinals proposed it, not “the Cardinals”. From their document (English translation):In an effort to enhance the ecumenical mission of the Church, and to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all its fullness, we, the undersigned cardinals and bishops who have convened in the favored Marian Shrine of Fatima (May 3-7, 2005), wish to express to you, Most Holy Father, our united hope and desire for the solemn papal definition of the doctrine of the Church regarding Mary Most Holy as the Spiritual Mother of all humanity, the Co-redemptrix with Jesus the Redeemer, Mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one Mediator, and Advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race.
Just want to make sure we’re all on the same page here.

Yes, you are right 5 Cardinals…I wouldn’t expect that all of them would propose it. The report came out February 11th on Zenit to correct that part of my statement…On The Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes…very fitting…

"ROME, FEB. 11, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Five cardinals have sent a letter inviting prelates worldwide to join them in petitioning Benedict XVI to declare a fifth Marian dogma they said would “proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary.”

The text, released last week, includes the petition that asks the Pope to proclaim Mary as “the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity, the co-redemptrix with Jesus the redeemer, mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one mediator, and advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race.”

The signatories of the letter are five of the six cardinal co-sponsors of the 2005 International Symposium on Marian Coredemption, held in Fatima: Cardinal Telesphore Toppo, archbishop of Ranchi, India; Cardinal Luis Aponte Martínez, retired archbishop of San Juan, Puerto Rico; Cardinal Varkey Vithayathil, major archbishop of Ernakulam-Angamaly, India; Cardinal Riccardo Vidal, archbishop of Cebu, Philippines; and Cardinal Ernesto Corripio y Ahumada, retired archbishop of Mexico City…"{zenit.org/article-21749?l=english

And I know we are not debating the dogma here…

God Bless, mary

 

[pnewton]

And I know we are not debating the dogma here…

God Bless, mary

Nor discussing new Marian dogma. There is, however, an active thread on that topic.

 

[mgrfin]

Slow down. Five Cardinals proposed it, not “the Cardinals”. From their document (English translation):In an effort to enhance the ecumenical mission of the Church, and to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all its fullness, we, the undersigned cardinals and bishops who have convened in the favored Marian Shrine of Fatima (May 3-7, 2005), wish to express to you, Most Holy Father, our united hope and desire for the solemn papal definition of the doctrine of the Church regarding Mary Most Holy as the Spiritual Mother of all humanity, the Co-redemptrix with Jesus the Redeemer, Mediatrix of all graces with Jesus the one Mediator, and Advocate with Jesus Christ on behalf of the human race.

Just want to make sure we’re all on the same page here.

Not really a major cross-section of Catholic bishops (cardinals have no special powers in the Sacrament of Order). Five bishops from such faraway places out of 2,200 bishops worldwide. Couln’t they get more support?

We have had three definitions in the history of the Church - two of them related to Mary. I personally recognize Mary’s place in the Redemtive act - but I don’t think a definitive statement is necesary.

Prayers and charity to all who post here.

peace

 

[japhy]

I am sure it makes sense to educated, intelligent, knowledgeable adults that the problem in the Church was caused by changing the Liturgy into the vernacular so people could better understand it? This makes no sense.

No one here said “that the problem in the Church was caused by changing the Liturgy into the vernacular so people could better understand it”. If they did, I missed it. Besides, Vatican II did not call for the whole Liturgy to be translated into the vernacular. Vatican II called for full, conscious, active participation by the faithful at Mass first and foremost through proper catechesis by their priests! Read Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 14, again. It called for the retention of Latin in the Mass, and for the faithful to be able to respond in Latin. Clearly, Vatican II didn’t want to make parrots (derogatory term) out of the flock (non-derogatory term), it wanted an educated flock.

I fully expect a liturgical renewal somewhere down in the future, but that is not Communion on the tongue and kneeling that will considered a renewal or renovation. Adults do not see the implication or weight of any of these things. They are purely incidental to the Eucharistic celebration.

See, adults would see the implication if they were properly catechized. Why is that some of the adults in the Church do see the implication, and others call it “purely incidental”?

A new liturgical renovation will be a totally new rite, which will not make you happy at all, since it will probably do away with the Mass you think is so vital. Use of latin is less and less and will continue to diminish.

See, a lot of staunch traditionalists say the liturgical renovation did create a totally new rite. In fact, Pope Paul VI said so himself:1. We ask you to turn your minds once more to the liturgical innovation of the new rite of the Mass. This new rite will be introduced into our celebration of the holy Sacrifice starting from Sunday next which is the first of Advent, November 30 [in Italy].

1. A new rite of the Mass: a change in a venerable tradition that has gone on for centuries. This is something that affects our hereditary religious patrimony, which seemed to enjoy the privilege of being untouchable and settled. It seemed to bring the prayer of our forefathers and our saints to our lips and to give us the comfort of feeling faithful to our spiritual past, which we kept alive to pass it on to the generations ahead.
   They argue that a proper liturgical renewal would not have created a “new rite”, but would have improved the existing rite. A liturgical reform faithful to Sacrosanctum Concilium will not break with tradition, will not create a “new rite”, will retain Latin and Gregorian Chant, will not excise and gut the prayers of the Church, will demand reverence, will itself produce active participation…

Change breeds change. Get behind the Spirit of Vatican 2, and pray for the unity of all Christians: Ut Unam Sint.

I’ll get behind the documents of Vatican II. The “spirit” of it seems deviate wildly from the documentation. Pope Benedict calls that the “hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture”.

And I hope you know that the unity of all Christians – Ut unum sint – means the unity of all Christians in the Catholic Church, under the Roman Pontiff, with nothing of the Catholic Church excised for the sake of unity. That’s what John Paul II said in his encyclical, that’s what Vatican II said.

 

[mgrfin]

And I hope you know that the unity of all Christians – Ut unum sint – means the unity of all Christians in the Catholic Church, under the Roman Pontiff, with nothing of the Catholic Church excised for the sake of unity. That’s what John Paul II said in his encyclical, that’s what Vatican II said.

What do you expect, that the Pope would want us to joint the Lutheran Church?

Saying the obvious is too much. We know what the unity of all Christians means. We know that our non-catholic christians have been referred to as belonging to ‘christian communities’, not ‘churches’ in the strick sense.

Obviously, then, joining the church is joining the only Church the pope knows. The Protestants know what he is talking about.

pray and charity to all who post here.

peace

 

[MaryJohnZ]

What do you expect, that the Pope would want us to joint the Lutheran Church?

Saying the obvious is too much. We know what the unity of all Christians means. We know that our non-catholic christians have been referred to as belonging to ‘christian communities’, not ‘churches’ in the strick sense.

Obviously, then, joining the church is joining the only Church the pope knows. The Protestants know what he is talking about.

pray and charity to all who post here.

peace

Unity of all Christians means the reversal of the Protestant Reformation and everyone coming back to the Church Jesus founded, and I believe that has started to happen. Interestingly many are coming back because they are rediscovering Mary and I believe the new Marian Dogma would further that cause and bring greater unity within the Catholic Church as well. Mary is the model for all Christians and anything that helps get that point across would help.

MJZ

 

[japhy]

We know what the unity of all Christians means. We know that our non-catholic christians have been referred to as belonging to ‘christian communities’, not ‘churches’ in the strick sense. Obviously, then, joining the church is joining the only Church the pope knows. The Protestants know what he is talking about.

There are people who think true Christian unity involves getting rid of the ministerial priesthood, getting rid of the “medievalist interpretation” of the Eucharist, and relinquish some dogmas.

 

[KathleenElsie]

There are people who think true Christian unity involves getting rid of the ministerial priesthood, getting rid of the “medievalist interpretation” of the Eucharist, and relinquish some dogmas.

Yes and it is not only the Protestants that think this way. Sadly some Catholics also believe this even some priests.

 

[japhy]

Yes and it is not only the Protestants that think this way. Sadly some Catholics also believe this even some priests.

What I find bizarre is that the “watered-down Catholicism” sects can’t even agree. Dutch Dominicans want to give lay people permission to confect the Eucharist (although permission and ability are two different things entirely). American groups want to admit women to the ordained priesthood. How about the two of them join forces and admit women to a non-existent priesthood?

 

[peary]

I am sure it makes sense to educated, intelligent, knowledgeable adults that the problem in the Church was caused by changing the Liturgy into the vernacular so people could better understand it?

This makes no sense. I fully expect a liturgical renewal somewhere down in the future, but that is not Communion on the tongue and kneeling that will considered a renewal or renovation. Adults do not see the implication or weight of any of these things. They are purely incidental to the Eucharistic celebration.

A new liturgical renovation will be a totally new rite, which will not make you happy at all, since it will probably do away with the Mass you think is so vital. Use of latin is less and less and will continue to diminish.

Change breeds change.

Get behind the Spirit of Vatican 2, and pray for the unity of all Christians: Ut Unam Sint.

prayer and charity to all who post here.

peace

**Wow, what world do you live in? LOL Latin is making a comeback as never before. More and more churches and dioceses are offering the Tridentine liturgy for celebration. Latin workshops are filled to overflowing by both priests and laity eager to learn (or re-learn, as the case may be) how to celebrate the rubrics of the Tridentine liturgy, which is our heritage.

Never before in the history of the Church has a liturgy been as misconstrued as the Tridentine - and suppressed as vindictively as it has for the past 40 years. Novus Ordo was to engage the laity in full participation of liturgical celebration. Instead, we got balloon liturgies, clown liturgies, bubble liturgies - everything profance but hardly sacred according to the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II. Well, that ‘spirit’ was NOT the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II, although I can wager a guess as to what kind of ‘spirit’ it was.

The Holy Father recognized a very great need in the Latin Church to allow the graces of the Tridentine once again so that those who have been marginalized could once again participate in good conscience.

In the past 40 years the Church has lost the sense of the sacred and the Faith has been watered down. That’s why so many Catholics have left the Church. What is there to stay for? Things, however, are turning around, slowly but surely. The Holy Spirit definitely moves in mysterious yet very forceful ways**.

 

[Brother_John]

**Wow, what world do you live in? **

I live in the Diocese of Dallas, and I have heard of none of this

 

[mgrfin]

:

You haven’t answered any of my questions/objections. You just made an attack on me, “Wow”.

The Holy Spirit took a vacation for the past 40 years?

The Faith has not been watered dowm. and putting the Mass in English, or having had the Vatican Council is not the reason why one soul left the Church.

Maybe abortion or birth control, but not the vernacular.

BTW, I am from New York, and I live in California. Is that a problem, or are able to make an uncharitable statement about that?

With all my knowledge of the Latin language, and my understanding of the Liturgy, maybe I can get a job at one of these symposiums.

prayers and charity for all who post here.

peace

 

[peary]

The Holy Spirit took a vacation for the past 40 years?

The Faith has not been watered dowm. and putting the Mass in English, or having had the Vatican Council is not the reason why one soul left the Church.

Maybe abortion or birth control, but not the vernacular.

prayers and charity for all who post here.

peace

Are you actually serious? We have lost two generations of Catholic Christians because of poor catechetics. The Church in the United States has lost the greatest amount of membership of any denomination. If it weren’t for the influx of immigrants keeping it afloat, it would have gone the same route as mainline protestant denominations. Divorce among Catholics is at the national norm. And what about the recent sex scandal among the clergy? Are you going to put your head in the sand about that too? Less and less importance has been given to the Eucharist where now a significant amount of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. I suggest you begin by taking off those rose-colored glasses of yours and see things in the context of what is real. The Church is still in a mess, although we are coming out of it little by little. No, the Holy Spirit didn’t take a vacation, but an unholy spirit certainly made its presence known in the so-called “spirit of Vatican II”.