What is the "Crisis"?

[bobzills]

Would it be surprising if Cardinal Bernardin had made disparaging remarks about Humanae Vitae?

Yes it wuold, because the use of artificial contraception is a mortal sin and it would be surprising to find out that the Vatican does nothing when a Cardinal disagrees with a cardinal doctrine of the Catholic faith.

 

[Sure]

As was reported in the article the communists" wanted to undermine the Church by recruiting men into the priesthood who had no vocations and who would cause havoc by confusion and bad example". That is exactly what happened.
Have you read Goodbye-Good Men.? This book names names and seminaries that inflitrated the Church with homosexual priests by rejecting all of the orthodox canidates via the screening process.Their prupose was to destroy the priesthood so that women and married men would be allowed to be priests.
An entire chapter of the book is about Father Trigilio and his path to priesthood. Here is an excerpt.
“Father John Trigilio, who co hosts Web of Faith, a popular apologetics program on Mother Angelica’s EWTN television network, recounted his seminary days…spanning three seminaries, three dioceses, and a host of rejections from others…because he overtly supported the teachings of the Church, he was targeted as an “orthodox” candidate”…during his first week at St Marks seminary in Erie, Pennsylvania] he was was accosted by a faculty priest, “ I hear you don’t want women priests?”…and then the priest warned me that if I wanted to get ordained, I’d better get those ‘old’and ‘outmoded’ ideas out of my head.”…I remember being humiliated because I wanted to pray the rosary…I think a lot of the younger students were sucked in by the gay subculture there…the students were actively coached to keep quite about the seminary’s strange goings-on…at Mary Immaculate Seminary in Northampton, Pennsylvania…four years of indoctrination…some guys wore women’s clothing, lingerie, makeup…[the faculty] would come right out and deny dogmas of the Catholic faith…we had a nun who taught us liturgy, She maintained that sacrifice is a pagan idea that needed to be expunged from the Mass. She also taught us that the Church has only six sacraments since she cannot receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders.”

Oh I agree, that the seminaries were a train wreck. Thankfully, some of the worst have been closed or cleaned up. The thing that I don’t get is that Vatican II is the CAUSE of the horrible experience that Fr. Trigilio relates. As you note, he was chastized by seminary teachers. Obviously, bad seminaries get that way usually through really bad professors. I would imagine that many if not most of these horrible professors were educated and ordained prior to Vatican II. Now, the fact that they openly espoused heresy leads me to believe their seminary education and priestly formation was seriously lacking. We were producing bad priests way before Vatican II.

 

[sphilomena]

Ever hear of Bella Dodd? Yes another one of those crazy traditional myths that has been proven true. Many of the “crazy priests” were put into the seminary by Bella Dodd and others like her.

Catholic Report Interview With Father Andrew Apostoli
catholicreport.org/?id=255
During the last 10-15 years of his life some began to say that Archbishop Sheen was passé, that his ideas were no longer relevant. Well I don’t know how anyone can say that the truth is passé. What I believe he really faced was resistance from some who wanted to change the authentic teachings of the Church.
The Lord also brought individuals to him who told of experiences which he probably wished he didn’t have to know. For example the one time ardent Communist Bella Dodd was a convert of Archbishop Sheen. She told him that while she was a Communist Joseph Stalin told her and other Communists that the Catholic Church was the greatest enemy of Communism. He wanted to undermine the Church by recruiting men into the priesthood who had no vocations and who would cause havoc by confusion and bad example. Bella Dodd told the Archbishop that she had personally recruited into the priesthood between 800 and 1200 men who had no vocations. Knowledge such as this was not easy for Archbishop Sheen. Yet it caused him to pray even harder.

I’ve never heard her name or read that article, but it sure seems to coincide with the book AA-1025. These priests would appear orthodox at first, then do their damage later. Look at some of the senior members of the hierarchy. Good thing God’s in charge but we must pray!

 

[DustinsDad]

Well, if that was true that would seem to support my position that something was rotten in the seminaries before Vatican II…

Well sure, Sure - that’s what all those pre-Counciliar encyclicals were all about.

 

[peary]

In many threads, reference is made to the “Crisis” in the Catholic Church today.

EXCLUDING sexual abuse/pedophilia, Please elaborate as to what you see as the “Crisis” or “Crises” (plural) in the Catholic Church today.

**lack of proper catechesis among youth and adults for two generations already

vocation crisis

rejection of an understanding of the Eucharist

breakdown of the family and divorce**

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Oh I agree, that the seminaries were a train wreck. Thankfully, some of the worst have been closed or cleaned up. The thing that I don’t get is that Vatican II is the CAUSE of the horrible experience that Fr. Trigilio relates. As you note, he was chastized by seminary teachers. Obviously, bad seminaries get that way usually through really bad professors. I would imagine that many if not most of these horrible professors were educated and ordained prior to Vatican II. Now, the fact that they openly espoused heresy leads me to believe their seminary education and priestly formation was seriously lacking. We were producing bad priests way before Vatican II.

Naturally there were secret modernists in Catholic circles prior to Vatican II. However, the Vatican clamped down on them through disciplinary measures such as the encyclicals DustinsDad mentioned and the Oath against Modernism. Hence I would say it was much more difficult to be an open modernist prior to the Council than after, and that includes seminaries. When the discipline became more lax, with the attitude being let’s not issue anathemas any more or excommunicate, it’s no wonder that some in Catholic circles began to reveal their true colors (or just the concupiscence of sin natural to man) after Vatican II. And it’s not necessarily true that these modernists became so because of seminary training; there are other means as well.

 

[stmaria]

=Sure;3330472]Oh I agree, that the seminaries were a train wreck. Thankfully, some of the worst have been closed or cleaned up. The thing that I don’t get is that Vatican II is the CAUSE of the horrible experience that Fr. Trigilio relates. As you note, he was chastized by seminary teachers.

Obviously, bad seminaries get that way usually through really bad professors. I would imagine that many if not most of these horrible professors were educated and ordained prior to Vatican II.

Now, the fact that they openly espoused heresy leads me to believe their seminary education and priestly formation was seriously lacking. We were producing bad priests way before Vatican II.

Prior to Vatican II is what Pope Leo is writing about with Freemasonry papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm
What Pius X is writing about modernism
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html
And Bella Dodd time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,822500-1,00.html
Revealed to Bishop Scheen.

The book *Goodbye Good Men *points out that many seminaries, not all, were taught by a very liberal faculty. St Thomas Aquinas was ignored and instead they read the dissenters from Catholic teachings like Richard Mcbrien, Edward Schillebeeckz, Hans Kung and Charles Curran. Schillebeeckz en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Schillebeeckx
And Kung en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_K%C3%BCng
Were ‘expert theologians’ at Vatican II.

The book points out that in 1981 Pope John Paul ordered studies of the seminaries in the United States. The visitation team was know as the “Marshall Committee”
Father Trigilio [EWTN} said that when the team visited Mary Immaculate[ page 181 ] “papal encyclicals mysteriously appeared as if we we actually taught from them” Things they never did , like benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, were all of a sudden done. It was a big show. And soon as the delegation left the encyclicals got placed back onto remote shelves, rosaries were put back into drawers…’
The book continues, ".by 1980 the revolution had completely taken hold…the 1980’s were the crest of a wave of the liberals rise to power…by then, liturgical experimentation was systematized into a series of abuses that had become “norms’ ,moral theology had been confused, and was reflected practically in the moral lives of faculty students”

On positive note " in the early 1990’s somewhat more conservative priests emerged from the seminary…who seek to live the priestly life as the Church defines the ministry versus the middle-aged, “radical” priests of day past who seek to reenvision the priesthood and the entire Church based on a misguided sense of renewal"

 

[Sure]

Prior to Vatican II is what Pope Leo is writing about with Freemasonry papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm
What Pius X is writing about modernism
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html
And Bella Dodd time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,822500-1,00.html
Revealed to Bishop Scheen.

The book *Goodbye Good Men *points out that many seminaries, not all, were taught by a very liberal faculty. St Thomas Aquinas was ignored and instead they read the dissenters from Catholic teachings like Richard Mcbrien, Edward Schillebeeckz, Hans Kung and Charles Curran. Schillebeeckz en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Schillebeeckx
And Kung en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_K%C3%BCng
Were ‘expert theologians’ at Vatican II.

The book points out that in 1981 Pope John Paul ordered studies of the seminaries in the United States. The visitation team was know as the “Marshall Committee”
Father Trigilio [EWTN} said that when the team visited Mary Immaculate[ page 181 ] “papal encyclicals mysteriously appeared as if we we actually taught from them” Things they never did , like benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, were all of a sudden done. It was a big show. And soon as the delegation left the encyclicals got placed back onto remote shelves, rosaries were put back into drawers…’
The book continues, ".by 1980 the revolution had completely taken hold…the 1980’s were the crest of a wave of the liberals rise to power…by then, liturgical experimentation was systematized into a series of abuses that had become “norms’ ,moral theology had been confused, and was reflected practically in the moral lives of faculty students”

On positive note " in the early 1990’s somewhat more conservative priests emerged from the seminary…who seek to live the priestly life as the Church defines the ministry versus the middle-aged, “radical” priests of day past who seek to reenvision the priesthood and the entire Church based on a misguided sense of renewal"

Yes. Modern relativism was well at work within seminaries before Vatican II. Thankfully, the young men in seminaries now are overwhelmingly faithful and traditional.

 

[stmaria]

Yes. Modern relativism was well at work within seminaries before Vatican II. Thankfully, the young men in seminaries now are overwhelmingly faithful and traditional.

Many of these Bishops, Cardinals and Theologians were at Vatican II. They didn’t just disappear right before the Council started… That may explain the ambiguity in many of the VII writings. We know the unproven accusations against Father Bugnini.
And this book by Time Magazine’s Robert Kaiser has an interesting quote.
*Pope, Council and World *Pg 149 Cardinal Ottaviani, “ went to Pope John and expressed his concern over what he had been told was a very active ferment of new theological ideas in Rome. The Holy Office had its eye on men like Congar, Chenu, De Lubac and Rahner…Now he found Rahner in Rome, lecturing bishops, even writing critiques of his commission’s schemata.”

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Yes. Modern relativism was well at work within seminaries before Vatican II. Thankfully, the young men in seminaries now are overwhelmingly faithful and traditional.

Again, while certainly some professors and seminarians may have harbored modernist sentiments in the seminaries prior to Vatican II, what actual evidence (as in testimony from people who actually went to seminary prior to Vatican II) is there that seminary training prior to Vatican II was awful or modernistic? I am willing to bet that the seminary training prior to Vatican II was a darn sight better and more substantive than the seminary training after Vatican II as described by Fr. Trigilio or Michael Rose in Goodbye Good Men.

 

[catharina]

Many of these Bishops, Cardinals and Theologians were at Vatican II. They didn’t just disappear right before the Council started… That may explain the ambiguity in many of the VII writings. We know the unproven accusations against Father Bugnini.
And this book by Time Magazine’s Robert Kaiser has an interesting quote.
*Pope, Council and World *Pg 149 Cardinal Ottaviani, “ went to Pope John and expressed his concern over what he had been told was a very active ferment of new theological ideas in Rome. The Holy Office had its eye on men like Congar, Chenu, De Lubac and Rahner…Now he found Rahner in Rome, lecturing bishops, even writing critiques of his commission’s schemata.”

Maria, we would all do well to “consider the source.” You quoted Robert (Blair) Kaiser who is (still) one of the most controversial and liberal anti-papists of our time. Not only that, he writes book that support his view to earn his living. I’m rather certain that he considers himself to be no friend of the Church.

(I’m certain you were unaware of this man’s history.)

 

[peary]

Ok, now I’ll throw my “opinion” out there.

Personally, and I doubt that I’m alone, I believe that Vatican II SAVED the Church (particularly in the West) from total collapse.

Why? Because the age of technology and information was coming upon us. Television, in particular gained a strong foothold in our society during the 50’s.

People started asking questions, and wanting answers. It is even more prevalent today with computers and internet.

Perhaps Church leaders could see, that teaching the faithful to do this and do that, simply because “Sister Dorothella said so” wasn’t going to hold much longer. Something had to change. Church leaders could see thousands gravitating to Protestant denominations. Today, so-called non-denominationals are popping up like pimples on a teenager.

Yes, Mass in Latin, and so many other Church traditions are/were beautiful. But then again, so was the Titanic. And we all know what happened there. Consider for a moment, that the Second Vatican Council “saw the iceberg” BEFORE it was too late.

to be continued…

I’m not so sure. The Eastern Orthodox churches would have been affected in the same way, but actually, they weren’t. They were not affected by Vatican II; they retained their ancient liturgies of worship. They wethered the storm more intact than the western Church did. Is there an explanation for this?

 

[DustinsDad]

Many of these Bishops, Cardinals and Theologians were at Vatican II. They didn’t just disappear right before the Council started… …

Excellent point. It is not much of a stretch to see that the “open window” attitude and perhaps what one might call the “nice” approach of the Council, that even with the best of intentions, resulted in a “perfect storm”.

It’s like the foxes were already hiding in the henhouse, when the farmer instituted the policy of talking with the foxes in order to convice them not to eat the chickens, rather than grabbing the pitchfork and .22 and running 'em out of town. Something like that anyway. Analogy on the fly - my apologies.

 

[catharina]

I’m not so sure. The Eastern Orthodox churches would have been affected in the same way, but actually, they weren’t. They were not affected by Vatican II; they retained their ancient liturgies of worship. They wethered the storm more intact than the western Church did. Is there an explanation for this?

One factor might be that the western Church is larger and much more active in the realm of missionary work. Just this past weekend, I joined a Chinese family for a small New Year’s celebration. Wearing my tiny crucifix as I always do in public, I mentioned to the family that Mass is celebrated in Mandarin at a local parish on the third Sunday of each month. This one factor might be the only thing that would ever get the grandma to agree to attend. She fled China about 1950, still not an mature adult then. Back in China, she would NEVER have attended a Latin Mass. Now here in the States, she’s learned Cantonese and English but she still misses Mandarin to such an extent that she would be thrilled to hear it in any format. It might be the only thing that will engage her into attending a Mass for the first time in her life.

 

[stmaria]

Maria, we would all do well to “consider the source.” You quoted Robert (Blair) Kaiser who is (still) one of the most controversial and liberal anti-papists of our time. Not only that, he writes book that support his view to earn his living. I’m rather certain that he considers himself to be no friend of the Church.

(I’m certain you were unaware of this man’s history.)

In your opinion. Have you read Pope,Council and World?
Kaiser loved Vatican II and Pope John. His book has a **positive **view of Vatican II.
You don’t know what you are talking about.

 

[catharina]

In your opinion. Have you read Pope,Council and World?
Kaiser loved Vatican II and Pope John. His book has a **positive **view of Vatican II.
You don’t know what you are talking about.

Think again.

Maria, is there any acceptable way to bring something to your attention without your taking offense, feeling attacked, whatever?

The book you’re mentioning was published in 1963.

Have you read his memoir? (It’s called Clerical Error, a true story.) *Published in 2002. *

It’s an eyeopener as to Mr. Kaiser’s actual lived values.

Or suit yourself.

 

[stmaria]

=catharina;3331433]Think again.

Maria, is there any acceptable way to bring something to your attention without your taking offense, feeling attacked, whatever

You are describing yourself. Not me. I never take offense.

The book you’re mentioning was published in 1963.

Yes. Published 1963. Written during the Council. A history of Vatican II.

Have you read his memoir? (It’s called Clerical Error, a true story.) Published in 2002.

It’s an eyeopener as to Mr. Kaiser’s actual lived values.

No I haven’t read it. What does that have to so with what he reported on in 1962-63?

Or suit yourself.

OK By the why catharina.You scolded me because I used the word “lucky” I think you said it was satanic. I went to confession and told the priest, “Father forgive me for I have used a figure of speech”. He said, " I see you have met catharina."

 

[catharina]

You are describing yourself. Not me. I never take offense.
Yes. Published 1963. Written during the Council. A history of Vatican II.

No I haven’t read it. What does that have to so with what he reported on in 1962-63?

OK By the why catharina.You scolded me because I used the word “lucky” I think you said it was satanic. I went to confession and told the priest, “Father forgive me for I have used a figure of speech”. He said, " I see you have met catharina."

Guess you ate your Wheaties today. Nothing but sarcasm.

Again, suit yourself.

Maria, I would hope you took offense and didn’t simply casually slam me with “You don’t know what you’re talking about.” as a friendly gesture.

No I never called your use of the term lucky “satanic” because I know that I never would. Did I say that it’s a word used to convey belief in luck, good fortune, etc. Yes. It is. It’s more likely that we would be given to say “we’re blessed.” (That’s how it came up. You said I must be lucky since I don’t complain much about my experiences within the Church. I said No, not lucky. I’ve been blessed. Still, suit oyurself. You need to consider me lucky and you need to accuse me of describing something as satanic?

• hey Maria, whatever.

Now, WHY might you be interested in Kaiser’s autobiography? Hmmmm, it puts his life and observations in chronolgical order, detailing when, where, why he left the Church …little historical facts like that. But suit yourself. You know EVERYTHING. As you’ve said I must be “lucky” and I “know nothing.”

Why on earth do you continue to be so unpleasant? YUCK.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Excellent point. It is not much of a stretch to see that the “open window” attitude and perhaps what one might call the “nice” approach of the Council, that even with the best of intentions, resulted in a “perfect storm”.

It’s like the foxes were already hiding in the henhouse, when the farmer instituted the policy of talking with the foxes in order to convice them not to eat the chickens, rather than grabbing the pitchfork and .22 and running 'em out of town. Something like that anyway. Analogy on the fly - my apologies.

Good analogy!

 

[peary]

I think Inquisition is the answer for much of the problems within the Church.

Inquisition? HUH?