What is the "Crisis"?

[historyb]

But that is the point I am trying to make. How can we KNOW that we are worse off with V2?

Do we not believe in the infalliability of the Pope? Do we not trust that our Cardinals and Bishops saw or knew things that the congregations didn’t?

Why would they willfully take actions to undermine the Church? Clearly the Second Vatican Council was formed to ACT on things that were going awry within the Church.

As an example, I can’t imagine how forcing the faithful to adhere to Mass in Latin over the last 40 years would INCREASE the numbers of the faithful. But on this forum, on a daily basis, I read threads and posts that literally claim that a return to Mass in Latin would bring people in the US to the CC by the droves.

I can only trust in the Pope, and believe that those in the Second Vatican Council were/are far smarter and more learned than I ever could be.

The problem here is you seem narrowly focused. Look around you and see that “the spirit of V2” was nothing good for the Church. I am a convert and when I went to the Catholic Church it was no different than any Protestant Service that I have been too. There was nothing distinctively Catholic about the service and there always should be.

I converted in spite of that, in fact I did my homework and was so shocked with what I saw that I almost walked back out and remained a Protestant, after all they now resembled each other. Even my Dad when he was still alive ask me if this was a Catholic Church when he went with me. The changes away from V2 are good, Tradition needs to have it’s place back, it has gotten to Protestant. Maybe not by the mere fact of V2, but by the “spirit of V2” of course if you think Barney Masses, Clown Masses, Gay Masses and all the rest are ok just ignore us and go to a different part here. Just don’t give us this story about nothing being wrong.

 

[Brother_John]

Maybe not by the mere fact of V2, but by the “spirit of V2” of course if you think Barney Masses, Clown Masses, Gay Masses and all the rest are ok just ignore us and go to a different part here. Just don’t give us this story about nothing being wrong.

I wonder where some of you live. I’ve lived in Suburban Chicago, South Alabama, and North Texas…and I have NEVER seen any of the above types of Masses. The only place I saw Mass with the streamers running up and down the aisle before the Gospel was when visiting a brother in law in Minnesota.

All the churches I’ve attended, with the exception of the “overflow” “Folk Mass” in Chicagoland, have been what I would consider, traditional.

 

[historyb]

Just Google it.

youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA - Clown Mass

youtube.com/watch?v=fHi_VZLtcQ8 - Barney Mass

As for me I live in CA or the Left Coast Magazine de presse & actualité | EXS

 

[catharina]

I wonder where some of you live. I’ve lived in Suburban Chicago, South Alabama, and North Texas…and I have NEVER seen any of the above types of Masses. The only place I saw Mass with the streamers running up and down the aisle before the Gospel was when visiting a brother in law in Minnesota.

All the churches I’ve attended, with the exception of the “overflow” “Folk Mass” in Chicagoland, have been what I would consider, traditional.

I agree. Circus, Clown, Gay - nope, I’ve never seen one Mass like that. I’ve also lived in the Midwest in Chicago and St. Louis and northern Kentucky; have visited extensively in Alabama and Mississippi and the Carolinas. I’ve never even heard talk of such things. Now I’m living in northern California and I haven’t seen an irreverent Mass out here since about 1975. (I walked out of that Mass.) I think such things must be very rare.

 

[Brother_John]

As for me I live in CA or the Left Coast Magazine de presse & actualité | EXS

Well, I guess that explains it

 

[anthony022071]

Hi Anthony,

Would it be surprising if Cardinal Bernardin had made disparaging remarks about Humanae Vitae?

I doubt that he did. Cardinal Bernadin was not a liberal or a dissenter. When I read that claim,it read like a sleazy swipe at Cardinal Bernadin’s character.

 

[catharina]

I doubt that he did. Cardinal Bernadin was not a liberal or a dissenter. When I read that claim,it read like a sleazy swipe at Cardinal Bernadin’s character.

I also doubt that Cardinal Bernardin shared any such thought with Father A. Greeley. Who would? Father G. is well-known for “collecting” info, writing it up and selling it. Who would ever trust him with private opinions? Not Cardinal Bernardin who served as a faithful, humble, servant of the Church for all his life and he had no habit of criticizing Popes.

 

[latinmasslover]

Inquisition? HUH?

Nothing wrong with the Inquisition, except for the extremes. We ought to have another. By that I mean, those of questionable orthodoxy should be examined, and, should they continue in heresy, formally excommunicated.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I agree with all the threads that there is a crisis in the church, but I think it is hard to determine the main factor in the crisis and then
decide on the auxiliary symptons…there are so many symptons as listed above from falling vocations to lack of reverance, spread of false beliefs, lack of knowledge of faith.

So, I am going to step out boldy and say that the problems started to occur when Maian Devotion was down played after Vatican II and that if we can go back and begin to consecrate our homes, churches, lives to Mary she will take it upon herself to win us the graces each of us needs and the church and world needs.

This fits in with what is happening in terms of messages given in Private Revelations and goes along with teachings of the Church,
including Vatican II.

Mary, Protectress of our Faith, please pray for us!

So, I think the reason we can’t 'see" things correctly is because we are disconnected from Mary, our Mother.

maryJohnZ

 

[latinmasslover]

I agree with all the threads that there is a crisis in the church, but I think it is hard to determine the main factor in the crisis and then
decide on the auxiliary symptons…there are so many symptons as listed above from falling vocations to lack of reverance, spread of false beliefs, lack of knowledge of faith.

So, I am going to step out boldy and say that the problems started to occur when Maian Devotion was down played after Vatican II and that if we can go back and begin to consecrate our homes, churches, lives to Mary she will take it upon herself to win us the graces each of us needs and the church and world needs.

This fits in with what is happening in terms of messages given in Private Revelations and goes along with teachings of the Church,
including Vatican II.

Mary, Protectress of our Faith, please pray for us!

So, I think the reason we can’t 'see" things correctly is because we are disconnected from Mary, our Mother.

maryJohnZ

Right on:thumbsup:

 

[bobzills]

So, I am going to step out boldy and say that the problems started to occur when Maian Devotion was down played after Vatican II and that if we can go back and begin to consecrate our homes, churches, lives to Mary she will take it upon herself to win us the graces each of us needs and the church and world needs.

I think you have hit on something important here.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I think you have hit on something important here.

Just to go a bit further with it…and this might be an “odd ball” kind of fact but I have a devotion to the Holy Face ( which is the Devotion to win true teaching in the church by the way) and because I pray for people to have spiritual blindness removed when I was on the Jewish Encyclopedia site yesterday I saw an entry under “eyes” and decided , out of curiosity to go there. The
article was talking about how the white part of a person’s eye comes from your Father and the black part (which is the seeing part) biologically comes from your Mother…how they know that is beyond me, but isn’t that interesting?

So even biology shows the spiritual reality!

Mary said “My soul magnifies the Lord” and I think we are disconnected from her we start to lose our ability to see God in a true way. I imagine you can trace the beginning of the problems even further back to the Protestant Reformation. We need to become connected to Mary, the 'spiritual neck" of our Church.

Mary, Protectress of Our Faith, please pray for us!

maryJohnZ

 

[peary]

The problem here is you seem narrowly focused. Look around you and see that “the spirit of V2” was nothing good for the Church. I am a convert and when I went to the Catholic Church it was no different than any Protestant Service that I have been too. There was nothing distinctively Catholic about the service and there always should be.

I converted in spite of that, in fact I did my homework and was so shocked with what I saw that I almost walked back out and remained a Protestant, after all they now resembled each other. Even my Dad when he was still alive ask me if this was a Catholic Church when he went with me. The changes away from V2 are good, Tradition needs to have it’s place back, it has gotten to Protestant. Maybe not by the mere fact of V2, but by the “spirit of V2” of course if you think Barney Masses, Clown Masses, Gay Masses and all the rest are ok just ignore us and go to a different part here. Just don’t give us this story about nothing being wrong.

Well, there’s always the Eastern Catholic Byzantine rite you can attend. I find it most moving.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

The problem here is you seem narrowly focused. Look around you and see that “the spirit of V2” was nothing good for the Church. I am a convert and when I went to the Catholic Church it was no different than any Protestant Service that I have been too. There was nothing distinctively Catholic about the service and there always should be.

I converted in spite of that, in fact I did my homework and was so shocked with what I saw that I almost walked back out and remained a Protestant, after all they now resembled each other. Even my Dad when he was still alive ask me if this was a Catholic Church when he went with me. The changes away from V2 are good, Tradition needs to have it’s place back, it has gotten to Protestant. Maybe not by the mere fact of V2, but by the “spirit of V2” of course if you think Barney Masses, Clown Masses, Gay Masses and all the rest are ok just ignore us and go to a different part here. Just don’t give us this story about nothing being wrong.

There are extremes in the church. Vatican II did not bring about 'clown masses" and gay massess" that came from rebels inside the church ignoring Vatican II and any other form of tradition.

I agree that Tradition has been ignored, but you can have a beautful mass in the post Vatican form of facing the people as well.

My problem is when you are at a mass and they change words in the consecration or something vital like that…

Vatican II documents have a lot of beautiful stuff in them when you read them so I think the documents were emptied of their meaning and re-translated by people who just wanted to change the church anyway.

Did you ever read AA1025 ? About communists infiltrating the seminaries? Is it a fiction? I tend to think the church ws infiltrated
and attacked from within. I know they make fun of people who think there are Communists plots all over the place, but I do see that something happened from within the church.

 

[stmaria]

=MaryJohnZ;3334846]
Did you ever read AA1025 ? About communists infiltrating the seminaries? Is it a fiction? I tend to think the church ws infiltrated
and attacked from within. I know they make fun of people who think there are Communists plots all over the place, but I do see that something happened from within the church.

I have never heard of AA1025 but I do believe Bella Dodd who confided in Bishop Scheen that she personally put in over one thousand communists into the seminaries in the 1950’s

It didn’t stop there as one can see from the recent revelation in Poland.

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=24608 7/5/2007
WARSAW, Poland (CNS) – One in seven of Poland’s 132 Catholic bishops was registered as a secret police informer under communist rule, but the scope of the issue has not been fully established, said a Polish church commission… "Up to 20 were registered by communist Poland’s security organs as secret collaborators, operational contacts or information sources, and one as an intelligence agent, while several were registered as potential recruits

 

[MaryJohnZ]

I have never heard of AA1025 but I do believe Bella Dodd who confided in Bishop Scheen that she personally put in over one thousand communists into the seminaries in the 1950’s

It didn’t stop there as one can see from the recent revelation in Poland.

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=24608 7/5/2007
WARSAW, Poland (CNS) – One in seven of Poland’s 132 Catholic bishops was registered as a secret police informer under communist rule, but the scope of the issue has not been fully established, said a Polish church commission… "Up to 20 were registered by communist Poland’s security organs as secret collaborators, operational contacts or information sources, and one as an intelligence agent, while several were registered as potential recruits

whoah…didn’t know all that. I can see it though.

AA1025 was a diary of one of the ageants who infiltrated a seminary that was discovered on him by a nurse after he was in a car accident and published as a book. I blieve TAN has it.
When I read it I recognized a lot of things I see around me.

God Bless, MaryJohnZ

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Prior to Vatican II is what Pope Leo is writing about with Freemasonry papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13human.htm
What Pius X is writing about modernism
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html
And Bella Dodd time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,822500-1,00.html
Revealed to Bishop Scheen.

The book *Goodbye Good Men *points out that many seminaries, not all, were taught by a very liberal faculty. St Thomas Aquinas was ignored and instead they read the dissenters from Catholic teachings like Richard Mcbrien, Edward Schillebeeckz, Hans Kung and Charles Curran. Schillebeeckz en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Schillebeeckx
And Kung en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_K%C3%BCng
Were ‘expert theologians’ at Vatican II.

The book points out that in 1981 Pope John Paul ordered studies of the seminaries in the United States. The visitation team was know as the “Marshall Committee”
Father Trigilio [EWTN} said that when the team visited Mary Immaculate[ page 181 ] “papal encyclicals mysteriously appeared as if we we actually taught from them” Things they never did , like benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, were all of a sudden done. It was a big show. And soon as the delegation left the encyclicals got placed back onto remote shelves, rosaries were put back into drawers…’
The book continues, ".by 1980 the revolution had completely taken hold…the 1980’s were the crest of a wave of the liberals rise to power…by then, liturgical experimentation was systematized into a series of abuses that had become “norms’ ,moral theology had been confused, and was reflected practically in the moral lives of faculty students”

On positive note " in the early 1990’s somewhat more conservative priests emerged from the seminary…who seek to live the priestly life as the Church defines the ministry versus the middle-aged, “radical” priests of day past who seek to reenvision the priesthood and the entire Church based on a misguided sense of renewal"

I was a young married woman in the 1980s and my husband and I turned on a documentary on PBS here in New England. They were interviewing young men in the seminaries and showing how
many young men who were more pious and conservative were not being let in while most of the men who were allowed in were young men with strong social justuce concerns. so you could see a shift towards emphasis on working for the poor and the corporal
acts of mercy while spiritual acts of mercy ( praying for the poor souls, devotions in general) were not emphasized.

It was an interesting documentary. There is nothing wrong with the corporal works…but we need more of a balance.

Recently the local Pastor told the aging and dying off rosary altar society that someone had actually asked why we needed a rosary
society…why not just get rid of it…

So that is where we are…

Mary

 

[wisdomseeker]

The problem here is you seem narrowly focused. Look around you and see that “the spirit of V2” was nothing good for the Church. I am a convert and when I went to the Catholic Church it was no different than any Protestant Service that I have been too. There was nothing distinctively Catholic about the service and there always should be.

I converted in spite of that, in fact I did my homework and was so shocked with what I saw that I almost walked back out and remained a Protestant, after all they now resembled each other. Even my Dad when he was still alive ask me if this was a Catholic Church when he went with me. The changes away from V2 are good, Tradition needs to have it’s place back, it has gotten to Protestant. Maybe not by the mere fact of V2, but by the “spirit of V2” of course if you think Barney Masses, Clown Masses, Gay Masses and all the rest are ok just ignore us and go to a different part here. Just don’t give us this story about nothing being wrong.

where did you get this picture it is beautifull.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This all going to change. i believe because this church does not belong to man but to Jesus. and soon His church will be Holly again all those desecrating His church will be done with. I believe.

 

[Conservative]

In many threads, reference is made to the “Crisis” in the Catholic Church today.

EXCLUDING sexual abuse/pedophilia, Please elaborate as to what you see as the “Crisis” or “Crises” (plural) in the Catholic Church today.

Brace yourself - this is a bit long. I prefer TLM, and while I won’t discuss whether changes in the Mass are an issue - I will say that most of the items listed below are not an issue in TLM Churches. I do believe Anna Catherine Emmerich spoke on something that sounded like a reference to that subject. However, do you remember the childhood story of “The Emperor’s New Clothes”? One child called it as he saw it - “He has nothing on!”

The crisis in our Church? **There’s nobody there! ** Even after ecumenism, changes in the liturgy, and modernizing to the point where instead of remembering we’re Catholics we’re worried about accomodating - the world, fashions, other religions - even allowing Sunday Mass obligation on Saturday evening. (People are more concerned about meeting personal schedules than making God their priority on Sunday. And the Church, in trying to accomodate, has said - okay, how about Saturday? But let’s ask ourselves, Hey, how about God?)

The crisis in our Church? There’s no reverence/prayer. How many healthy people don’t genuflect when passing the Blessed Sacrament; or proper attire for Mass; how after Mass some Churches become meeting halls of conversation instead of remembering it’s a house of prayer - God’s House (Mass is over but God is still in the Tabernacle); there’s few - if any - novenas (remember them?) or weekly recitation of the Rosary and sadly a handful attendees there?

The crisis in our Church? **There’s no solid enforcement **of The Ten Commandments & of our Faith. Priests’ sermons don’t have to be fire and brimstone to teach - but do we come away educated about our Faith or against the dangers today’s world presents to us? Do we even listen or are we still walking into Church at that point?

Despite bingo games, roulette wheels (at fairs, etc.), bake sales, dinners, etc., the Churches and schools are struggling - closing - due to lack of funds. Is that the only way the Church can bring us in? Modernism - it was spoken about by Popes. We must adapt to the times but we musn’t compromise our religion to it - and sadly that’s what we do everyday - myself included. We’ve put God on a backburner - to TV, activities, today’s lifestyle - whatever. I can’t help but wonder, if returning to a more prayerful time would be so much more pleasing to God that we’d see the message behind the “loaves and the fishes”…From a few, would come many - if we’d only come to Him in prayer. As we’re seeing, I don’t think we needed changes - we needed sanctity or at least a desire for it. I don’t see it in our times.

And that - is the crisis in our Church.