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catharina
Guest
Holy Mother Church says we are allowed to avail ourselves of the opportunity of attending Vigil Masses. Deo gratias. Case closed.
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stmaria
Guest
Yes to make it “easy”.to fulfill the obligation. How many that attend the Saturday Vigil *keep holy the Lord’s day *while they are out at the lake?
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Fr. Benedict Groeschel said that it is the abysmal state of knowledge by the laity and the failure of the Church to teach … which is a relatively recent abandonment of its responsibility.
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catharina
Guest
I have no idea but I would guess probably quite a few. If they and their families and friends are loving one another in community and thanking God for all the beauty of nature and weather and friendship, then definitely quite a few.
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stmaria
Guest
I am sure that those that go to Mass on Saturday and then spend Sunday, the Lord’s Day shopping, sking at the lake, sleeping in, going to the football game ,all do it for the Glory of God.
Pope Benedict
Living the Sunday obligation
73. Conscious of this new vital principle which the Eucharist imparts to the Christian, the Synod Fathers reaffirmed the importance of the Sunday obligation for all the faithful, viewing it as a wellspring of authentic freedom enabling them to live each day in accordance with what they celebrated on “the Lord’s Day.” The life of faith is endangered when we lose the desire to share in the celebration of the Eucharist and its commemoration of the paschal victory. Participating in the Sunday liturgical assembly with all our brothers and sisters, with whom we form one body in Jesus Christ, is demanded by our Christian conscience and at the same time it forms that conscience. To lose a sense of Sunday as the Lord’s Day, a day to be sanctified, is symptomatic of the loss of an authentic sense of Christian freedom, the freedom of the children of God. (206) …Sunday thus appears as the primordial holy day, when all believers, wherever they are found, can become heralds and guardians of the true meaning of time. … while recognizing that Saturday evening, beginning with First Vespers, is already a part of Sunday and a time when the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled – we need to remember that it is **Sunday itself **that is meant to be kept holy, lest it end up as a day "empty of God." (208)
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MaryJohnZ
Guest
Yes, we have to continually “Will” to do that, and if we find in our circumstances we are not able then use the Vigil mass, but always remember the preference is to go on Sunday.
It sounds like the Pope is giving us something to test our conscience with…it is easy to desensitize our counscience, which is why I think the vigil is good but can be misused.
I have always had my kids put on their work applications that they need Sunady mornings free for religious purposes and they never had problems getting jobs. Even if you have a store you can at the very least have it closed on the Sunday morning.
Mary
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Conservative
Guest
You know what’s the saddest of all?
In our discussion regarding Sunday obligation or keeping holy the Lord’s day, I’m reminded of the Quakers, who reserved the entire Sabbath for prayer in “meeting houses”. All we’re expected to spend is about one hour on Sunday, and in current times, it seems to have become out of sync with our schedules.
“Remember to keep holy The Sabbath” - not the night before the Sabbath - or go to Mass on the Sabbath and then hit the malls. Isn’t it sad? I’m not criticising anyone - I’m no saint by any means. But why should one hour out of 168 hours be so difficult? And why, if it’s for the glory of God and salvation of our souls, do we not ban together as Christians, as well as Catholics, against anti-Christian influences, to refuse ***unnecessary work or business ***on Sundays? ***I’m leaving emergency workers / purchases out of the mix here. ***
Getting off my soapbox now.
In our discussion regarding Sunday obligation or keeping holy the Lord’s day, I’m reminded of the Quakers, who reserved the entire Sabbath for prayer in “meeting houses”. All we’re expected to spend is about one hour on Sunday, and in current times, it seems to have become out of sync with our schedules.
“Remember to keep holy The Sabbath” - not the night before the Sabbath - or go to Mass on the Sabbath and then hit the malls. Isn’t it sad? I’m not criticising anyone - I’m no saint by any means. But why should one hour out of 168 hours be so difficult? And why, if it’s for the glory of God and salvation of our souls, do we not ban together as Christians, as well as Catholics, against anti-Christian influences, to refuse ***unnecessary work or business ***on Sundays? ***I’m leaving emergency workers / purchases out of the mix here. ***
Getting off my soapbox now.
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MaryJohnZ
Guest
Last week I was in a local antique store and saw a picture of 'Mary Help of All Christians" and information that this was the image John Bosco encouraged devottion to. For anyone who is familiar with St. John Bosco he had dreams including the dream with the church in troubled waters and the Pope ties the boat of the church to the two pillars of Marian Devotion and the Eucharist.
I believe Pope John Paul II did this with his Year of the Rosary and the Year of the Eucharist…but I also was looking at EWTN and came across this article which mentions an interpretation of the John Bosco dream about the church and our times. Here is the link to the article. It gave me much hope that brighter horizons are ahead! But we need to restore devotion to Mary. That is God’s Will. Devotion to the Eucharist naturally accompanies that I believe.
ewtn.com/library/MARY/BOSCODRM.HTM
GOD BLESS!!!
MaryJohnZ
I believe Pope John Paul II did this with his Year of the Rosary and the Year of the Eucharist…but I also was looking at EWTN and came across this article which mentions an interpretation of the John Bosco dream about the church and our times. Here is the link to the article. It gave me much hope that brighter horizons are ahead! But we need to restore devotion to Mary. That is God’s Will. Devotion to the Eucharist naturally accompanies that I believe.
ewtn.com/library/MARY/BOSCODRM.HTM
GOD BLESS!!!
MaryJohnZ
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catharina
Guest
Maria, this was your question and I answered it. Based on my life experience ‘people who spend Sunday at the lake’ are not inclined to disrespect Almighty God in the process. If anything, for city folk, a day at the lake can lead people (esp, families) to praise God anew for the majesty of His creation. You had an agenda and a mindset. Instead of asking a simple question, why didn’t you put forth your impressions, state your agenda and reveal your mindset? Then I wouldn’t have answered you at all. Why would I disagree with someone who is certain that his/her mindset is the ONLY thinking allowed?
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mgrfin
Guest
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KathleenElsie
Guest
The only day of the week that ALL the members of our family are not normally expected to work outside of the home is Sunday. Even on Sunday the animals need cared for, and the wood burner needs fed to keep us warm in the winter. We all need to eat and since out Monday starts with my getting up at 4:AM the cleanup from our Sunday must be done on Sunday. So yes if we get a chance to go to Mass as a family (us and our children’s families)and it it happens to be “vigil” Mass then that is the one we go to we take up two pews when this happens.
We don’t shop on Sunday except in an emergency (medical needs come to mind). We do go to the park, biking, swimming in summer and other family outings as does our priest after Mass.
We don’t shop on Sunday except in an emergency (medical needs come to mind). We do go to the park, biking, swimming in summer and other family outings as does our priest after Mass.
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catharina
Guest
Perfect, Kathleen Elise, and exactly what I had in mind about families being together on Sundays. Thanks for the description!
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KathleenElsie
Guest
You are welcome
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peary
Guest
**It all goes back to Christ’s clarification when He said “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.” God does not need our worship of Him; it is WE who NEED to worship Him, to thank Him for all that He has bestowed upon us. God desires a RELATIONSHIP with us, not only individually but communally as well. God rested on the 6th day of Creation. The Sabbath was given to us as a day of rest from all of our labors from the week just ended. Jesus wanted us to realize that our perception of the Lord’s Day was turned upside down. The truth is, the ‘obligation’ is a day of rest for ourselves, and a time to pray as a community and individually to re-orient ourselves to our relationship to God. One can now see that it was given to us because of God’s love for us, not out of a sense of ‘obligation’ but out of love. **You know what’s the saddest of all?
In our discussion regarding Sunday obligation or keeping holy the Lord’s day, I’m reminded of the Quakers, who reserved the entire Sabbath for prayer in “meeting houses”. All we’re expected to spend is about one hour on Sunday, and in current times, it seems to have become out of sync with our schedules.
“Remember to keep holy The Sabbath” - not the night before the Sabbath - or go to Mass on the Sabbath and then hit the malls. Isn’t it sad? I’m not criticising anyone - I’m no saint by any means. But why should one hour out of 168 hours be so difficult? And why, if it’s for the glory of God and salvation of our souls, do we not ban together as Christians, as well as Catholics, against anti-Christian influences, to refuse ***unnecessary work or business ***on Sundays? ***I’m leaving emergency workers / purchases out of the mix here. ***
Getting off my soapbox now.
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MaryJohnZ
Guest
I have to disagree a bit with what you are saying. The Church gives us the Sunday obligation of all gathering together to worship as a family and that is the first obligation. Our truest rest is found in God not nature, for nature only reflects the perfect beauty that comes from God. We should never get to the point that we think
our enjoyment of God’s creation substitutes for our enjoyment of Him directly. No matter how much you argue it, I don’t think you can say this, without being in danger of replacing God with lesser things that come from God.
There should be a way to come to church…one hour a week!
Come on… Only necessary work or obligations that can’t be avoided should count as excuses. If someone spends a family reunion or some vacation week using the Saturday Vigil, erhaps that can be OK in a person’s conscience as an exception for one particular event… but to make it a gerneral rule or practice seems to be wrong.
My friend commented to me last fall how hard it is to have kids in sports programs these days because they want to do practices and games on Sunday mornings. We are just losing our time to ‘rest in God’ and we need to stand up and reclaim that as important before other people and God Himself.
Jesus waits for all of us 24 hours a day in the tabernacle…and most of the time no one visits Him. I see that as wrong.
Now don’t become defensive! I agree the Sabath was made for man not God, but our greatest need and desire should always BE GOD…
God Bless, Mary
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lak611
Guest
There is nothing wrong with spending time with one’s family in a park or in nature after Mass. From the Baltimore Catechism:
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MaryJohnZ
Guest
I have no problem with visiting family and enjoying nature on Sundays, but I do have a problem with misusing the vigil mass which I believe is given to us for situations when Sunday mass cannot be attended. It shouldn’t be a regular replacement mass for Sunday. I also would have problems with equating spending time with family and enjoying nature to Eucharistic adoration and mass, as the second is spiritually greater. Yes we see Jesus in each other and our homes are even domicile churches, but Jesus resides in the Blessed Sacrament completely, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity and our lack of respect and care for that Presence may lead to us losing it all together. In fact I live in a small town wher the church was closed and I saw the way people lost faith in the Real Presence incrimentally…
first they moved the Tabernacle to the side. The Priest told people the tabernacle was not the most important piece of ‘furniture’ in the church…the Altar was…and the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacle was a “leftover” ( his words not mine…
Once the TGabernacle was removed the church became chattier and chattier and there was no difference between that church and the school gymnasium before a school concert on Sunday mornings…
Then we lost Sunday mass, and we only had a vigil mass…
Then the one prayer group that prayed before the tabernacle was
locked out of the church for “insurance reasons”. There were no weekly masses at the church…we were told that praying in our homes was equal to praying in church.
The rosary was downplayed as old church…even though the main window in the church was a beautiful depiction of the scene from Secret of the Holy Rosary and had all 15 mysteries of traditional rosary in roundels around St. Dominic receiving the rosary…
not one of the Priests at the Parish would publicly promote the rosary…
We lost everything…the church was closed.last fall …
And unlike larger towns this is the only little church in our vincinity.
I can say I felt like I saw a well carried out plan to kill faith.
MaryJohnZ
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peary
Guest
Wow! I admit, some of the changes are questionable - and should be - but I see the changes as being a good thing generally. And you bring up relevent points too. I agree with most of them as far as pointing out how to “kill the faith.” Is that priest still a priest or did he lose his own vocation?
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KathleenElsie
Guest
As one of those that became so disillusioned after the “great changes” of the Spirit of Vatican II it is not hard for me to understand where you are coming from.
Many of the old Catholic Churches have closed in our area, the chapels are slowly being eliminated and adoration in our parish no longer exists and it saddens many of us. Yet I see hope and pray for vocations in the youth that are being homeschooled and are being taught the Faith.
Vigil Mass is not the reason that this has happened. Vigil Mass is the only way many people can get to Mass. If we hold that the Lord’s day starts Sat evening then their is nothing wrong with attending Mass then. As a youth there were Masses held at midnight for the factory workers in many industrial towns for those that worked second shift. Some places had Masses at 12:01AM and the last Mass on Sunday was around 10:15pm and no one complained about them as being just a convince that I know of. Now Masses are scheduled at 6PM Sat till 8PM Sunday. As someone said the Lord’s day is the longest day of the week and many are grateful for this fact
.We (society) are the cause of the problems. We work, shop and just can’t seem to sit still for more then five minutes on Sunday. We let things that should never have been allowed to happen. Holy Mother Church has adapted to our wordily ways in many non-crucial ways. Am I saddened with the changes YES. Do I think they should be changed again? YES Do I believe they should be forbidden? NO.
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MaryJohnZ
Guest
Actually I had two diocease priest use the same language to decribe the Sacramental Presence of Jesus in the Tabernacle…as a 'leftover", their view being that the hosts in the tabernacle are there on reserve for the sick in nursing homes etc. and somehow the Host consecrated at Mass are more ‘real’ ( at least the implication was there)
…it doesn’t make sense in any kind of theological fashion, but apparently that is what they learned in the seminary… and since I was the only one objecting to their language and logic I didn’t get far… I was easily isolated and ostracized by them.
Both Priests are still priests but the first one who had the Tabernacle moved was transferred to another Parish. But the replacement priests have all down played Adoration and the honoring of Christ in the Tabernacle.
. After the church closed in our town the church was absorbed into a larger Parish and the Priests there have all been very liberal. The person in charge of evagelization for the Parish told me sacramentals were unnecessary to our faith and every lent they remove the corpus from the crucifix over the altar for the entire period of Lent. So you can say there is no crucifix in the altar area all Lent. They put up a plain wood cross with purple cloth draped on it…but does that make any sense to anyone?
I tried to talk to the Parish Priest about it at one point and he threated to call the police and put a restraining orer on me…but don’t jump to the conclusion that somehow I was being threatening or angry or any of that because I wasn’t. I was just trying to talk to him about it…
As for moving the tabernacle to the side? Why does that make sense??? All it did was destroy a Spirit of Piety in the church.
Why does locking a rosary group out of the church that has been meeting there for 10 years make sense??? I think the “insurance” excuse was just that, an excuse…
So, forgive, forget and move on… but the lesson is there, all in all as soon as you lessen the importance of the Eucharist in any way you are on the way to losing it.
As to family dinner and time on Sundays replacing Sunady mass I was remembering that in that book I read ( AA1025 TAN publishing co.) which was about the communist agent entering the Priesthood, when he described their plans to destroy the church part of it was to make Sundays into just a family day, so it is ironic that this conversation has headed in that direction.They talked about having the husband in the family preside over the family meal like a priest… Now we haven’t gone that far but can you see the concern?
God Bless, maryJohnz
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