What is the difference between Catholic Salvation and non-Catholic Christian Salvation? Is there Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church?

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Rolltide said:
Some people think that the Catholic position on No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church changed during Vatican II, but the pope came to the same conclusion at least as far back as the discovery of the New World…
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This is good info. Do you have any references to the text of a final decision by the pope or a council?
 
adelaida_i,

If I may go backwards, the priest who told you that you did not have to convert was wrong. You had come to the idea that the Catholic faith was correct, and therefore, you should convert.

Now, I do not know what was taught years ago. Nor do I know if it was changed due to theological reasons or because of political ones. Yes, politics influence seminaries. Anyway, anyone who studies Catholic teachings should be able to see where others are not correct or are deficient in their understanding. There is no real reason to say “They are wrong.” In understanding the faith, you can better defend it, while if all oyu understand is why someone is wrong, you do not fully understand why you are right.

I still hold that anyone who is Christian and not in union with Rome may not KNOW that they are wrong and hold no culpability for it. From my readings, the Church has always taught that you are judged based on what you should have known and what you were capable of understanding.
 
ralphinal said:
adelaida_i,

If I may go backwards, the priest who told you that you did not have to convert was wrong. You had come to the idea that the Catholic faith was correct, and therefore, you should convert.

Now, I do not know what was taught years ago. Nor do I know if it was changed due to theological reasons or because of political ones. Yes, politics influence seminaries. Anyway, anyone who studies Catholic teachings should be able to see where others are not correct or are deficient in their understanding. There is no real reason to say “They are wrong.” In understanding the faith, you can better defend it, while if all oyu understand is why someone is wrong, you do not fully understand why you are right.

I still hold that anyone who is Christian and not in union with Rome may not KNOW that they are wrong and hold no culpability for it. From my readings, the Church has always taught that you are judged based on what you should have known and what you were capable of understanding.
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Dear Ralph,

I haven’t explained you the context of my discussion with that priest. Now I think it is important because it makes clear, I think, what II Vatican Council wants to say in Unitatis Redintegrazio.
The priest to whom I talked, father Scalfi, is a catholic priest that have a mission in Russia from 50 years. Around him grew in Italy a catholic community that is translating orthodox books, making courses of Icons Painting, having a choir that sings the songs of the Russian Orthodox Mass. Persons that try to understand the beauty of the orthodox tradition, that have helped the faithful during the communist years to publish their books and keep their faith.
Around him in Russia and Italy gathered many orthodox Russians that are making a real community together with the catholics, remaining still orthodox. They have learned a lot from the catholics as the catholics learned from them. And maybe thanks to the work of this priest and of this community soon the Pope will meet the Patriarch Alexei.
When I talked with him I was very interested to know if there are orthodoxes that live in the way I saw living the persons in the Catholic Community that I met (Communion and Liberation). I loved and I still love the Orthodox Church and my friends there. So what I desired most was to make them known the way of life I met so that they can live in that wonderful way also. So, maybe for this and for the future unity of our churches was better to stay Orthodox. I don’t think it would have been a damage for my salvation!!! But it would have been difficult for me. Because if you are part of a Church you are bound to obey to it’s authorities and to be part of it’s tradition, and the Orthodox tradition is very exigent (only the mass takes 2,5 hours). And in that moment I was convinced that that tradition is not a necessary condition for my salvation. So, it seemed to me a big sacrifice to remain Orthodox, a little too big…
But I think I am one that have a good understanding of ecumenism, as one of my biggest desires is to see the two churches united. And I know that the better way to help this to happen is not to try to convince the orthodoxes to become catholics (it makes them really angry if you try, and they are trying back on you in reply or they are going away from you!), but to help them live the beautiful Christian life I have seen here, together with the catholics; this way of living that made me willing to convert (together with other reasons). And you can tell me if this seems to you wrong or really ecumenic.
Best regards,
Adelaida
PS I think it is obvious from this that I think that many of the orthodoxes will be saved! As they are orthodox in really good faith!
 
If I am have a say…I am Protestant in the Wesleyan Church, and for us salvation means repenting of your sins, believing in Jesus as the Son of God as the sacrifice for our sins, and by following the teachings of Christ, to live a Holy life. We do not believe in baptism for salvation, nor is Communion salvific. Christ, through the shedding of His blood, and us accepting that by faith is enough for salvation. But…there is also the need to continually live a holy life, for we believe if you trample under foot the Son of God after coming to His knowledge, one does risk losing their salvation. This is the Wesleyan view…I do not speak for all Protestants.
 
No. The Church has NOT changed its teaching on salvation. Read the following from Catholic Answers:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as “the universal sacrament of salvation” (CCC 774-776), and states: “The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men” (CCC 780).

Notice my bold highlight above and to continue:

It is sometimes said that “no salvation outside the Church” is a relic of the past, a teaching that has no place in our modern ecumenical age. Some even argue that the Second Vatican Council made the teaching obsolete. On the contrary, this dogma was emphasized repeatedly in the documents of Vatican II

The teaching remains the same with no change at all.
 
t68ware said:
If I am have a say…I am Protestant in the Wesleyan Church, and for us salvation means repenting of your sins, believing in Jesus as the Son of God as the sacrifice for our sins, and by following the teachings of Christ, to live a Holy life. We do not believe in baptism for salvation, nor is Communion salvific. Christ, through the shedding of His blood, and us accepting that by faith is enough for salvation. But…there is also the need to continually live a holy life, for we believe if you trample under foot the Son of God after coming to His knowledge, one does risk losing their salvation. This is the Wesleyan view…I do not speak for all Protestants.
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T68ware, if there is no need of the Church for your salvation, why are you still part of a Church? Is there possible to be saved alone? Why the Church?
 
ricko said:
No. The Church has NOT changed its teaching on salvation. Read the following from Catholic Answers:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as “the universal sacrament of salvation” (CCC 774-776), and states: “The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men” (CCC 780).

Notice my bold highlight above and to continue:

It is sometimes said that “no salvation outside the Church” is a relic of the past, a teaching that has no place in our modern ecumenical age. Some even argue that the Second Vatican Council made the teaching obsolete. On the contrary, this dogma was emphasized repeatedly in the documents of Vatican II

The teaching remains the same with no change at all.
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Dear Ricko, I don’t think the early Church had to confront with the problem of Church division! It is true that the dogma did non change because nothing of the old formulation of the dogma has been denied. But it has been enriched as the reality in which we are living is different. And this enrichment is part of a living tradition, a living Church inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Then if there is a desire for the unity of all Christianity (and I think that Catholic Church desire this a lot!!!), that means that we don’t simply think that they are lost, as the one with no faith, but that their faith experience is Christian and this can be fully matured in living in unity as our Lord prayed for us (John 17.11 and 17.21). Our Christian brothers are important for us as Christians!
What do you think?
 
The Church is not the author of Salvation, Christ is. The Church is a living body of believers whereby we learn of the grace of God, and the path to God, that is, Jesus Christ. I belong to the Church because it states in the Book of Hebrews not to forsake the gathering of believers, and the Church is also for edifying eachother. So the Church is very important, but is not the giver of my salvation. Once again, a Protestant viewpoint and I am sure Catholics will find something wrong with what I wrote.
 
t68ware said:
The Church is not the author of Salvation, Christ is. The Church is a living body of believers whereby we learn of the grace of God, and the path to God, that is, Jesus Christ. I belong to the Church because it states in the Book of Hebrews not to forsake the gathering of believers, and the Church is also for edifying eachother. So the Church is very important, but is not the giver of my salvation. Once again, a Protestant viewpoint and I am sure Catholics will find something wrong with what I wrote.
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Hi 68ware,

“Believers” of what exactly? I’m pretty sure when you put an “s” on the end of “believer” (singular) that makes it “believers” (plural) or more than one believer, right? If there is a single body of “Christian” believers, don’t they all technically have to “believe” in the same thing? You’ve lost me here.🤷

There exists an estimated 36000+ different non-Catholic Christian and Protestant faiths, sects’, “cults”, religions or denominations. This means that there exists 36,000+ different “Christian” beliefs, if this were not the case; there would be only one non-Catholic Christian or Protestant religion. :cool:

It is time for Christian Unity… Please proceed directly to the nearest Roman Catholic Church and become part of Real Christian Unity today. We have over 2500 dioceses worldwide, in every country and one billion members but there is still plenty of room for everybody else. 😃

The Catholic Mass is celebrated at least once a day every day, all year. Moreover, at many parishes, Mass is celebrated more than once a day.

How many religions exist where someone can attend a “Church Service” (Mass) every day?

When a Catholic Mass is celebrated, we are all united as one, focused on Jesus Christ, with all other Catholics worldwide, who if attending Mass at the same hour, are all attending essentially the same Mass and praying the same prayers at the same time. Additionally, they will hear the same Bible readings for that day…How’s that for “Real Christian Unity” or “One Body of Believers”? 🙂

Once again… Please proceed directly to the nearest Roman Catholic Church and become part of Real Christian unity today.

Thank you for your cooperation 👍
 
t68ware said:
The Church is not the author of Salvation, Christ is. The Church is a living body of believers whereby we learn of the grace of God, and the path to God, that is, Jesus Christ. I belong to the Church because it states in the Book of Hebrews not to forsake the gathering of believers, and the Church is also for edifying eachother. So the Church is very important, but is not the giver of my salvation. Once again, a Protestant viewpoint and I am sure Catholics will find something wrong with what I wrote.
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t68ware, that was not a bad answer. We are also believing that Jesus Christ is the one that save us, and the Church itself would be nothing without Him.
But if the Church is the place where you came to know Jesus, and a place where you can learn what a holy life is, I think the Church is really necessary for your/our salvation.
I would add that the Church is not only the body of believers, but it is the body of Christ Himself. As such, is not only the place where you come to know about Christ, it is the place where you can actually meet Him!!! ( you remember the Acts 9.4, Paolo did not persecute Jesus, he persecuted His Church, but Jesus sad “Why are you persecuting me?”!!! ) That is why staying united to the Church you are staying united to Christ Himself and you have a better chance to the salvation (as you have a better chance to learn and make a holy life and the chance not to detach from the Truth).
With love in Christ our savior,
Adelaida
 
Jimmy_B said:
What is the difference between Catholic Salvation and non-Catholic Christian Salvation? Is there Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church?
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I can’t speak with authority about Eastern Catholics. But the Latin Church teaches that salvation is to see God’s Essence - the Beatific Vision - after one’s death. The normal way is considered to die in good standing with the Latin Church, without any unabsolved mortal sins on one’s soul, and spend some ‘time’ in purgatory being ‘purged’ of unabsolved venial sins and the residue of absolved venial and mortal sins, before entering heaven. (Forgive me, I forget the normal terminology for the ‘residue’. Also, “time in purgatory” is not understood as ‘temporal time,’ since it’s outside the space-time continuum so to speak. Nevertheless…) One’s time in purgatory may be shortened by the prayers of the living (also their difficulties, good deeds, Masses, or Communions, offered up for them) and by partial indulgences obtained by oneself before death or by survivors after one’s death, or abolished by a plenary indulgence obtained by oneself near one’s death or by a survivor afterward. Any good deeds, prayers, extra sacraments received by one are technically optional and considered signs of ‘extra’ - desirable but superfluous - holiness, although they are also considered means of acquiring created grace from God, a substance in one’s soul to help one resist temptation in the first place. But if you die with one unabsolved mortal sin on your soul, you go directly to hell for eternity. Persons who are not visibly in “full communion with Rome” may be saved if they have not with full knowledge and culpability rejected this communion, and have lived their lives following their best lights or conscience in good faith, avoiding or turning back from sin and doing good.

The Orthodox Church (which originally included the Patriarchate of Rome) teaches and has always taught that salvation is to see and participate in God’s Uncreated Energies - in which He is fully present - hopefully even in life - because His Essence is neither visible to nor participable by creatures, ever, because the Uncreated is so far beyond the created. The normal way is to believe right doctrine, be joined to the Orthodox Church, and follow its way of Purification, Illumination, and Glorification (theosis, aka “deification” or divinization, but not apotheosis), including resisting and repenting of sin, partaking of the Mysteries (“sacraments”) of the Orthodox Church, prayer and worship, fasting and self-discipline / self-restraint / asceticism, almsgiving, following Holy Tradition and the Canons of the Church, practicing co-suffering love / charity / philanthropy, etc. (These things are not considered optional.) Purgatory, created “grace,” indulgences, a visible Divine Essence, and differentiating mortal and venial sins, are doctrines which became part of the tradition only of the Patriarchate of Rome subsequent to its original embrace of o/Orthodoxy. God’s Energies are what the Apostles Peter, James, and John saw as Light emanating from the Lord’s body at his Transfiguration, and many others from the living bodies of the Saints since then, and what were seen as “divided tongues as of fire” filling the Church at the first Christian Pentecost in Jerusalem, among many other instances (including the face of the Holy Patriarch Moses after his theophany on Mt. Sinai). God’s Energies are His activities and attributes, Uncreated Grace, seen by the Orthodox Saints as the Glory of God, the fire in Moses’ Burning Bush, the smoke that covered Sinai at the giving of the Law and the Temple after its construction (“Shekinah”), the fire/cloud that led the Israelites for 40 years, etc. Everything that exists has essence and energies, but the (o/Orthodox) Fathers of the Church learned this about God first not from human philosophy but their own vision of God’s Glory, their own Glorification. Theosis / glorification is becoming like God, though Energetically, not Essentially; reacquiring the God-like-ness our first parents lost (the “likeness” in Genesis’ “image and likeness”): “God became human so humans could become God,” as more than one Father of the Church expressed it. Glorification, ie, salvation, cannot be earned or deserved, but God bestows it freely on those who prepare themselves as described above. We will all see God in His Energies after the Last Judgment, the saved as Light, the rest as painful purifying fire for eternity. God in His Love does not force Himself on anyone. If anyone outside the Orthodox Church is saved - which may be possible - it’s because of God’s Grace through the Orthodox Church, His Body (which is not the same as Fr. Rahner’s “anonymous Christians,” nor according identical regard for other Christian groups’ rituals as for the Holy Mysteries of Christ’s Orthodox Church). The fact that non-Orthodox, even non-Christians, have sometimes seen actual Uncreated Light, is proof of this for faith … although some “light visions” may be demonic in character, as “Even the devil can appear as an angel of light,” so one really needs an Orthodox spiritual father or mother to help discern it.

How the Patriarchate of Rome’s teaching changed from the latter to the former, I’m not certain.
 
Dear Peter,
the theory of the uncreated Energies of God is a theory developed by the Orthodox Church after the schism. It was developed by Saint Gregory Palamas. So, for the Catholics it was not a passage form “the latter to the former”. The salvations is seen as granted by the faith in what the Church said (and this implies the Bible), the following of its teachings and tradition and this means, of course, unity with the Church in Sacraments. To say so is very similar to the Orthodox teaching (despite differences in ritual, teachings about how and how often to fast)…
The most important difference I see is the unity with the Bishop of Rome, which I retain very important for a Christian experience, as it gives one who believe the feeling of the unity with every Christian in the world, doesn’t matter nationality. And this unity is also a unity in teachings regarding the daily life, how to rapport yourself with the others churches, how to react to certain events that are events of our time… And this is good, because if you think at the orthodox Church, one or two Patriarchs are opened to the dialog with Rome, the third one no… and so on in other problems… So with the whole unity of the tradition, without one to say the Church has this attitude toward this problem of out time, each one think a do what his Patriarch says, and the unity come out less evident!
The second difference I see, but this maybe local, as I am familiar only with the Romanian Orthodox Church, is the lack of the church community. How the only authority in the Church are the priest and bishops, the rest of the Christians are somehow afraid to organize themselves to do things for the others, to help others in faith (they are not authorities, maybe they are wrong…). And in this way, for a Christian that is not a monk of a priest, is not so clear if he/she has a role, a position in the Church, and one lives his life of faith rather isolated from the others, as all that matters are the Sacraments and the prayer, fasting, alms (but one can do all this alone!). So, the unity come out less also from this point of view… And where the unity come out less, the love come out less also… and this is a pity, because from the love and the unity between us we are to be recognized (see John 17.21).
I don’t know how you live all this, I lived all this in a dramatic way, because I thought, and the Fathers teach us so, that Christ is not only for the moments in which you pray. But is a Presence important for your whole life, for all the moments of your life, for the way you are relating yourself to each and every person…
Really, how do you live this aspects?
God bless you,
Adelaida
 
Jimmy_B said:
Hi 68ware,

“Believers” of what exactly? I’m pretty sure when you put an “s” on the end of “believer” (singular) that makes it “believers” (plural) or more than one believer, right? If there is a single body of “Christian” believers, don’t they all technically have to “believe” in the same thing? You’ve lost me here.🤷

There exists an estimated 36000+ different non-Catholic Christian and Protestant faiths, sects’, “cults”, religions or denominations. This means that there exists 36,000+ different “Christian” beliefs, if this were not the case; there would be only one non-Catholic Christian or Protestant religion. :cool:

It is time for Christian Unity… Please proceed directly to the nearest Roman Catholic Church and become part of Real Christian Unity today. We have over 2500 dioceses worldwide, in every country and one billion members but there is still plenty of room for everybody else. 😃

The Catholic Mass is celebrated at least once a day every day, all year. Moreover, at many parishes, Mass is celebrated more than once a day.

How many religions exist where someone can attend a “Church Service” (Mass) every day?

When a Catholic Mass is celebrated, we are all united as one, focused on Jesus Christ, with all other Catholics worldwide, who if attending Mass at the same hour, are all attending essentially the same Mass and praying the same prayers at the same time. Additionally, they will hear the same Bible readings for that day…How’s that for “Real Christian Unity” or “One Body of Believers”? 🙂

Once again… Please proceed directly to the nearest Roman Catholic Church and become part of Real Christian unity today.

Thank you for your cooperation 👍
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If you are a sincere follower of Christ and the Bible, you’re a Christian, period. IMO, the denomination is simply how you exercise your Christian faith.

This eternal squabbling between denominations over who is right and who is wrong has to give God a constant migraine. This doesn’t even count the non-Christian faiths who feel their relationship with God is correct. Heck, maybe none of us have it completely right!
 
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