What is the difference between Catholic Salvation and non-Catholic Christian Salvation? Is there Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church?

[guanophore]

If the Catholic Church (lay people and clergy) is the Body and Jesus is the Head and together Christ Himself (Infallible)manifesting Himself through the Holy Spirit in the Eucharist then how can there be salvation outside the Catholic Church when all others reject the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ Himself.?

For surely the only way to the Father is through the Son.

God can save whoever He wants, however He desires. He has given us the Church, His Body, as the normative means of salvation. What the Church teaches it is that all who are saved are members of His Body, and are therefore, members of His Church. There is only One Body, and One Church, so they are Catholic whether they know it, or not. To the extent that they do not know or understand Her Teachings, they are improperly joined. It is my prayerful hope that they are invicibly ignorant. As to those who know, and still reject, they have been judged already because they do not believe.

 

[c659smith]

God can save whoever He wants, however He desires. He has given us the Church, His Body, as the normative means of salvation. What the Church teaches it is that all who are saved are members of His Body, and are therefore, members of His Church. There is only One Body, and One Church, so they are Catholic whether they know it, or not. To the extent that they do not know or understand Her Teachings, they are improperly joined. It is my prayerful hope that they are invicibly ignorant. As to those who know, and still reject, they have been judged already because they do not believe.

But do they not reject Jesus by refusing to receive Him and visit Him in the Holy Eucharist --Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

 

[thirdn6]

But do they not reject Jesus by refusing to receive Him and visit Him in the Holy Eucharist --Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

I notice that most people talk about faith and unity very often and tend to forget the importance of receiving Jesus, the Lamb of God, in the holy Eucharist!
The Holy Eucharist as the central focus of a Christian life.

 

[D_M]

Christians who are not united under the authority of see of Peter, are still baptized into the universal church and are part of, but imperfectly joined with, the church outside of which there is no salvation.

Baptism in itself, we hold in our belief, washes away all mortal and venial sins of the person it is given, and a person who dies in the state of grace that they had from baptism will inherit the kingdom, whether they are in full communion or not. The eastern churches that have a valid confessional (and a valid eucharist), truly are able to return grace lost after baptism and to give the grace which is necessary for finding eternal life just as a catholic would.

Salvation through the church extends to every baptized christian, whether they are fully or imperfectly joined to it, but christians who are outside Peter’s authority, as Pope Benedict XVI said in a controversial letter last year are lacking ‘the means of salvation’.

That is to say, while a protestant baptism is technically sufficient grace to enter the kingdom once they die, the moment a protestant commits one mortal sin, that grace is lost and needs to be absolved like any catholic. I am unsure how this could work without the means of a sacrament intended for this purpose. The rejection of these sacraments, which are ‘the means of salvation’ is a foolishly unneccessary thing done by protestants which needlessly jeopardizes their salvation, when if they had returned to Petrine authority they could have had these things which all christians should use, as they are an important and vital part of our salvation.

People in the eastern churches are less jeopardized, as they have the sacraments, but like the protestants they also reject Peter’s authority in which the church has its foundation, and this allows room for heresies to be taught by the leadership of these churches that leads the sheep astray and also causes harm to their salvation.

It is also true that a person who rejects these things, either Peter’s authority, the sacraments (and most especially the eucharist) is rejecting something that Christ instituted, and I would think also (either ignorantly or in knowledge) rejecting Christ Himself.

So I think the answer is: Christians outside Peter’s authority have salvation through the church as do roman catholics, but their salvaiton is put into needless jeopardy by not having the full institution, and it is perhaps also a sin to reject these things in themselves.

 

[redrosetea]

Sir Oscar read the diary of St Faustina…she had a private Revelation that upon death Christ calls to each soul 3 times, inviting them to come to Him

This says to me that no one is beyond God’s mercy ,nor salvation

Fr Groeschel always says to us, it is not up to us to decide how God reveals Himself to others

 

[SirOscar]

Sir Oscar read the diary of St Faustina…she had a private Revelation that upon death Christ calls to each soul 3 times, inviting them to come to Him

This says to me that no one is beyond God’s mercy ,nor salvation

Fr Groeschel always says to us, it is not up to us to decide how God reveals Himself to others

I read St. Faustina’s Diary, about 3 years ago. I’ll look through it again. God’s mercy is beyond human understanding. Thank you.

 

[guanophore]

But do they not reject Jesus by refusing to receive Him and visit Him in the Holy Eucharist --Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

Yes. They seem to be like the disiples on the road to Emmaus, and are kept from recognizing Him. Oh for seeing Him in the breaking of the bread!

 

[elts1956]

What a mess.

“No Salvation outside the Church” is a solemn teaching of the Church, all Catholics are obliged to believe it, and it can never change.

What has been going on for some time (see above thread for arguments about how long) is that the Church has been speculating farther and farther about which people might be able to be seen as “within the Church”.

Some of the speculation has gotten pretty wild. Ultimately, though, speculation is all that it is.

Everyone should keep in mind that a teaching of the Church remains a teaching of the Church, even if certain Cardinals are so embarassed about it that they will only put it in the Catechism by “restating it positively”.

Hello H.H. What about Pope John Paul’s Et Unum Sint? I am going to pester you til I get an answer.:yup: :yup:

 

[adelaida_i]

What a mess.

“No Salvation outside the Church” is a solemn teaching of the Church, all Catholics are obliged to believe it, and it can never change.

What has been going on for some time (see above thread for arguments about how long) is that the Church has been speculating farther and farther about which people might be able to be seen as “within the Church”.

Some of the speculation has gotten pretty wild. Ultimately, though, speculation is all that it is.

Everyone should keep in mind that a teaching of the Church remains a teaching of the Church, even if certain Cardinals are so embarassed about it that they will only put it in the Catechism by “restating it positively”.

Hello again,

this is not a matter of “certain Cardinals”. I’ve already quote the Vatican II Council (so, the Church teachings) on this matter. Please see previous posts.

What strikes me in this discussion it is that we make a great fuss on who’s in and who’s out without thinking that we are not granted to be in! Just being Catholic does not save you! But trying to understand the will of God and following this. We have more than the Bible for this, we have also the BIG Tradition of the Church, the Saints example. But we have to follow it! Being arrogant toward the others because we are Catholics is not following the Church teachings! (no offence, I’m not pointing to the post above)
With love in Christ,

Adelaida

 

[elts1956]

Extra ecclessiam nullam salus (Outside the Church there is no Salvation), was the old standing of the Church but it was changed because Christ’s saving acts are not exclusive for a single religion only.

Comments above does not reflect the real standing of the Catholic Church.

No Doctrine or Dogma of the Catholic Church can be contradicted. Once given, they remain absolute. However, either read my post following, or Pope John Paul’s document Et Unum Sint regarding Ecumensim and Salvaton outside the Catholic Church.

My paraphrasing of Et Unum Sint

No Dogma or Doctrine already given to the Catholic Church can be changed. It is also stated that all Dogmas and Doctrines have been given. There will be no more. They were given by Christ and his Apostles. The Pope and Magisterium can more deeply understand or expand the meaning of Doctrines or Dogmas as the church grows and matures, but the essence of those beliefs remains absolute. Cannot change. First John Paul praised those martyrs who have died for their faith, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. “They have given their lives for their faith in Christ”. He then stated ,(Hope I get this right) that ONLY within the Catholic Church is there full hope of Salvation. He then said that ALL churches and religious communities,Catholic or not, have some element of Catholic truth in them. ie. we don’t disagree on EVERYTHING. This being so, the MEMBERS of these churches and communities have remained within the Catholic community to the extent both Catholic and non-Catholic Churches have these beliefs. So whether we as Catholic, or non-Catholics like this pronouncement or not, we are all at least “partially” joined to the Catholic Community. Then: It is through the Grace the Catholic Church receives from Christ that all members of the Catholic community, including the non-Catholic members ,receive Grace as far as their beliefs align with those of the Catholic Church and have the hope of Salvation.

BUT it is only by being a full member of the Catholic Church, a Catholic in good standing, that we receive all Grace because the Catholic Chruch is the only Church that has the full truth as given to us by Christ and his Aposlles.

 

[Frank_J]

Hi

I have a question on Extra ecclessiam nullam salus (Outside the Church there is no Salvation), Fr Feeney and his group from the Still River, MA. would preach this and all that held this view got in trouble. Didn’t Fr Feeney with the Nuns that followed him get excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church???

In the statement (Outside the Church there is no Salvation)’ I don’t see where it would say, that the true Church in Roman Catholic. Maybe I blind and can’t see RC in that sentence could you show me where it is???

 

[thirdn6]

Hi

I have a question on Extra ecclessiam nullam salus (Outside the Church there is no Salvation), Fr Feeney and his group from the Still River, MA. would preach this and all that held this view got in trouble. Didn’t Fr Feeney with the Nuns that followed him get excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church???

In the statement (Outside the Church there is no Salvation)’ I don’t see where it would say, that the true Church in Roman Catholic. Maybe I blind and can’t see RC in that sentence could you show me where it is???

You can’t see it there same as other people can’t see Jesus in the Eucharist. But He’s there. It is only in the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church where you can find him!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**819 **“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

 

[Famule]

I don’t think Salvation is exclusive to any one denomination.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination of Christianity. It is the fullness of Christianity.

 

[Frank_J]

Hi thirdn6,

One is faith when it comes to Jesus in the Eucharist. I see Jesus in the Eucharist.

This question could lead to other question is if RC really belief in the Jesus in the Eucharist. I see short lines to the confessionals and long lines like bread lines. I know this takes place because I was raised in the RC Church when I was young. Unless something has change since I left back in the mid-1990’s.

I could see the differences between the Latin Tridentine Mass group and the Novus Ordo group in there views of faith. I not sure if you’re a Traditionalist or a Novus Ordo Catholic it may depend on what side of the fence you come from.

I use to be one Traditionalists group that said that the only true Mass was, the tried and the true, The Latin Tridentine Mass.

The other is one view of what they think a prayer that is said in the Church means.

The Orthodox Church sees it’s self as the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church. My Church holds also (Outside the Church there is no Salvation) and we say it is the Holy Orthodox Church.

Your dead Pope John Paul II said that he view RC and OC Churches as two lungs that need breath as one.

 

[Jimmy_B]

The Catholic Church is not a denomination of Christianity. It is the fullness of Christianity.

Hello Famule,

Great post!

I just wanted to add - Catholicism is the first Christian religion, founded by Jesus Christ, processing an unbroken, Apostolic chain, back to Pentecost, Saint Peter (who is buried beneath, St, Peter’ Basilica, Vatican City) and Christ, which all other Christian denominations follow and which they all broke from.

All other Christian denominations have broken from the original, early Christian Church, which is the Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church gave us the Bible and the Catholic Church represents - The Full Deposit of Faith.

All Christian truth is found in Catholicism, where other denominations, contain only partial truths.

Peace

 

[thirdn6]

hello Frank J,

My short answer and my opinion…

If all sins are mortal sins, you’ll see the longest line to the confessional and the shortest line to the communion line. I hope you get my point.

I am just a plain simple Roman Catholic. I believe the TLM and the Novus Ordo to be both valid Mass. My focus is always on the holy Eucharist. I detest any liturgical abuse.

Re Pope JPII, I’ve read that one, too.

 

[Frank_J]

Hi thirdn6,

I would agree with your remark here.

If all sins are mortal sins, you’ll see the longest line to the confessional and the shortest line to the communion line.

My only question would be if they understand what is sin and what is not? If you poll RC about what is there faith all about or what the RC Church believes I feel you would strange answer from them.

What RC view as a moral issues illegal immigration of people breaking U.S laws or on abortion say’s alot about your Church.

I view illegal immigration as wrong and immoral. If you had someone break in to your house and steel your stuff you would be upset about would you not.

Ted Kennedy is RC and supports abortion on demand. Why is he able to take communion in a Catholic Church from Cardinal Bernard Law. Cardinal Law gave communion him what dose this tell those faithful Catholic that find what he dose as he supports the killing of the young.

How GOD view the actions of Cardinal Law and Ted Kennedy.

I understand your religion and I know what RC see and believe about themselves’.

What Latin Catholic need to do is clean up there liturgical abuse, for if it is not corrected, you see more and more leave. If you wish know why I left it was because of a remark from a Novus Ordo Nun. She insulted me when she found out I was part of the Traditionalist movement. It was not the TLM that made me leave. I felt that was the last straw.

Maybe I view it this way it showed me where I truly belong. I happy being Orthodox Christian and would never leave my faith. It has not only given me a much stronger faith but has guided to the point of wanting to become a sub-deacon in order to serve GOD to the fullest.

The RC like OC Church need one another and until RC and OC Church can come together I see no progress being made for becoming one Church. The RC Church is incomplete and need the OC Church before that Prayer that say’s Outside the Church there no Salvation.

You said "I believe the TLM and the Novus Ordo to be both valid Mass. You must be a Novus Ordo Catholic for no traditionalist could say that. This not to fend you in any way I just stated there differences here between to different Catholic groups.

Until the RC can see this that prayer cannot be for filled in the RC eyes.

One can say it is here but until both are one then it stay as wish of many.

I see the Orthodox as the one true Church and you say your Church the only one so where does this leave us in a dead tie here.

The only reason I said what I have place in this chat was to make a point. People will look and see what is truth, when they see the right and wrong going on in any given body of Christians.

Salvation comes from GOD only.

Thank you for your response in your latest chat.

 

[adelaida_i]

Hello Frank,

you said:

If all sins are mortal sins, you’ll see the longest line to the confessional and the shortest line to the communion line.

My only question would be if they understand what is sin and what is not? If you poll RC about what is there faith all about or what the RC Church believes I feel you would strange answer from them.

It is a common thing that the Orthodox confess always before having the communion. I know also that the Orthodox Church recommends to have communion in the long fast periods of the year (so, 4 times a year is considered enough, from respect toward Christ in Eucharist!).
This helps a lot to understand the importance of the gesture you make, the value of what you receive. At the same time it concentrate all the religious life on the ritual so much that the relationship between the sacraments and the daily life is not so easy to see anymore (at least this is what I suffered from as Orthodox).

Ted Kennedy is RC and supports abortion on demand. Why is he able to take communion in a Catholic Church from Cardinal Bernard Law. Cardinal Law gave communion him what dose this tell those faithful Catholic that find what he dose as he supports the killing of the young.

I think many Catholics does not sees this with good eyes. I hope Ted Kennedy and the Cardinal that gave communion to him are both responsible persons, so he does not take the communion to his perdition. Anyway, more than this we cannot say as we don’t see in Ted’s mind!

What Latin Catholic need to do is clean up there liturgical abuse, for if it is not corrected, you see more and more leave. If you wish know why I left it was because of a remark from a Novus Ordo Nun. She insulted me when she found out I was part of the Traditionalist movement. It was not the TLM that made me leave. I felt that was the last straw.

Maybe I view it this way it showed me where I truly belong. I happy being Orthodox Christian and would never leave my faith. It has not only given me a much stronger faith but has guided to the point of wanting to become a sub-deacon in order to serve GOD to the fullest.

I’m happy that you found the place where to serve better God. I think the Orthodox Mass is a jewel, the place where you can see at best that God is the Lord, the Creator of all, and maybe this is the liturgy that best gives Him honor.
On the other side I hope you didn’t forget what I think is to be seen in the Catholic Church, That Christ, the Lord and Creator of all, having piety on us incarnated Himself and come to live with us, so that we have a starting point in behaving in the same way with the others.
If Catholics has to learn some more on the respect and reverence one must have in front of God. I think Orthodox should learn something on charity! As the charity we have for the other is nothing else that part of the Charity He had for us incarnating; taking care on the others one gives Him honor and makes Him visible in mid of us.

The RC like OC Church need one another and until RC and OC Church can come together I see no progress being made for becoming one Church. The RC Church is incomplete and need the OC Church before that Prayer that say’s Outside the Church there no Salvation.
….
Until the RC can see this that prayer cannot be for filled in the RC eyes.

One can say it is here but until both are one then it stay as wish of many.

I think we do not stay so badly. Steps are made forward for the unity (for example the insistence on the Latin mass by the Pope and other signs that the Catholic Church gives more attention to the tradition, the fact that the relationship with Russian Church improves, the meetings of the Pope with Ecumenical Patriarch!). And we also can make some steps forward helping each other to live as Christians the best we can, using our experience for the good of both parts, to the greater honor of the Lord. So, thank you for your contribution!
Anyway, if there is to be unity, that will be the work of God, for sure, as unity is the gift of the Holy Spirit. Hope God will hear our prayers!
With love in Christ,

Adelaida

 

[Roy5]

POLL SHOWS CATHOLICS BROAD-MINDED

 I believe that the Pew polling group made public a poll this very week which, among other things, asked if respondents believed that there were routes to salvation other than via their particular faith.

  These figures are approximate. Mainline Protestants - Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc. - were the most likely to say 'yes' - 83% sticks in my mind. Catholics were next, up in mid 70s.  Evangelical Protestants split about even. 

  So whatever the official teaching of the church is now or has been in the past, 3/4 of American Catholics believe that others can gain salvation without becoming Catholics. Sounds good to me.