What is the difference between Mormons and Islam?

[dianaiad]

I will get to you to quote it. It has been discussed many many times in this forum discussing Islam, with the Quranic reverences.

Thank you, but your claim was that MORMONS have something like this. That’s the reference I’m asking for.

 

[dianaiad]

I don’t know. It isn’t a doctrine. It is a practice. Mormons will either deny this practice, or, attempt to justify it. Most often it is used to protect the reputation of the LDS Church and its leaders or to gain converts.

Oh. I see.

Let me get this straight: if we deny that it is doctrine or that we practice it, it is proof that it is and we do?

 

[RebeccaJ]

The question is still, why? I don’t see any threads in this forum asking what the differences or similarities are between Islam and Lutheranism, or Islam and the Society of Friends, or Islam and the Amish, or Islam and Baptists.

Call me wary. Call me paranoid–or actually, call me weary and experienced. In my very long history of talking to people about the church, I have found that there has only ever been one reason to ask this particular question–and it is a begging of the question; it’s not a sincere question. It’s a tar brushing.

Why would it even occur to someone to ask it?

This is a meaningless diversion. All you have to do is search, and you will find numerous threads with the word “differences” in the thread title.

Why are you objecting to the question posed in this thread?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Oh. I see.

Let me get this straight: if we deny that it is doctrine or that we practice it, it is proof that it is and we do?

You practice it and you know it. Lying about lying doesn’t make the lie a truth. Would you like a list of Mormon lies? Would that make you feel better? I’ll provide them if you wish, but I am sure that you will only feel “persecuted”.

 

[dianaiad]

From the Nauvoo Expositor:

"On thursday evening, the 18th of April, there was a council called, unknown to the Church,

So as you can see, William Law was secretly excommunicated on April 15, 1844.

You are right. My apologies. He was removed from the First Presidency in January–understandable, given that he was so very vocally opposing Joseph. He protested that, and requested a new hearing, which was granted. It is THAT which took place on April 18th, and resulted in his excommunication. He was very aware of the hearing. The surprise was the excommunication rather than simply being removed from office.
RebeccaJ;4618300:

You will also notice that William Law never denied a testimony of the Book of Mormon. What he was against was polygamy, the lying to cover it up, and the actions of Joseph Smith & Co to keep it covered up.

William Law brought the truth to light in the printing of the Expositor, for which, Smith had it destroyed.

Inciting? Certainly, truth incites the fraudulent and dishonest to action.

In this case, it was also the fact that William Law freely admits to plotting to murder Joseph Smith before he published the paper. True, you may approve of what he wrote, but I am increasingly bemused by this willingness to forgive Law for blatantly plotting to kill Joseph, for conspiring with the Grey’s to see it done----and to think Joseph deserved to be murdered because he broke up a printing press.

Amazing, the way that works.

 

[RebeccaJ]

How about we start with this one:

In May 1844, Joseph Smith preached a sermon in Nauvoo:

"[William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this… A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now [William Law] has charged me with adultery…I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves… What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. - (History of the Church 6:410-411)

So , tell me, since you are the expert on Mormon history, did Joseph Smith have one wife at this time?

 

[RebeccaJ]

In this case, it was also the fact that William Law freely admits to plotting to murder Joseph Smith before he published the paper. True, you may approve of what he wrote, but I am increasingly bemused by this willingness to forgive Law for blatantly plotting to kill Joseph, for conspiring with the Grey’s to see it done----and to think Joseph deserved to be murdered because he broke up a printing press.

Amazing, the way that works.

Amazing how you just throw things out, totally made up, and now maybe you would be amazed that a reference to historical facts are in order.

 

[planten]

I will get to you to quote it. It has been discussed many many times in this forum discussing Islam, with the Quranic reverences.

swariffin, while attaching Taqiyya with mormons and Islam, you are conveniently killing two birds with one stone. Is that fantasy or fanaticism?

 

[William_M]

Obviously, Catholicism and Islam have a multitude of profound differences, but here is an important similarity: both believe in a closed canon, the Bible or the Koran, that cannot be added to by further revelation, much less revelation today. Protestants also so believe.

Why do Catholics, Muslims and Protestants believe in such a closed canon?

Please note that I am NOT asking why anyone disbelieves that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God or disbelieves Mormonism in general. I have read what you have posted about that. I am asking only about why Catholics and others do not believe that there is continuing revelation.

I think that all Christians (and Jews) believe that, in the past, God spoke to man through prophets. So, to add another variation of the above question, why would God, who loves us, not want to speak to us, and send prophets, today (or in the 19th Century)?

I am not in missionary mode here, I doubt that anyone has ever been converted on this forum, I am just asking out of curiosity.

 

[dianaiad]

This is a meaningless diversion. All you have to do is search, and you will find numerous threads with the word “differences” in the thread title.

Why are you objecting to the question posed in this thread?

Ok.

I did what you suggested. I did a search using the term ‘differences’ and got 20 pages of posts…1000 posts, going back over a year. I’m sure there are more going back further, but I think that this is a fair sample, especially since you are the one who defined the parameters of the search.

A year ago last month (2007) there was one thread titled “Islam and Catholicism.” No other thread asking about the differences between Islam and any other specific sect. Given that this is a Catholic forum, I think that comparing Catholicism to Islam makes sense.

What does not make sense is comparing Mormonism to Islam.

…and I’m not objecting, precisely. I’m asking ‘why,’ in order to get others to also ask ‘why,’ and to think about the motive for the question.

Y’see, it’s not a question that should even occur to someone who is simply curious; there is no reason, no prompting evidence to support it. The only people who would think to ask are people who have already read, or heard, some anti-Mormon publication that pulls this phony comparison out of their “Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers” and “Mormons believe that God had Sex with Mary” playbook.

(shrug) It’s a dead giveaway that the questioner isn’t actually curious; it’s a standard opening attack for someone who has already made up his or her mind.

You know…like asking a Catholic why they worship idols?

Diana

 

[swariffin]

The question is still, why? I don’t see any threads in this forum asking what the differences or similarities are between Islam and Lutheranism, or Islam and the Society of Friends, or Islam and the Amish, or Islam and Baptists.

Call me wary. Call me paranoid–or actually, call me weary and experienced. In my very long history of talking to people about the church, I have found that there has only ever been one reason to ask this particular question–and it is a begging of the question; it’s not a sincere question. It’s a tar brushing.

Why would it even occur to someone to ask it?

It is just that no one is interested yet to compare Lutheran and Islam or Islam w.r.t other. Just wait and and see, somebody will. Or, if you prefer to do so you can start one.

In this forum, everybody is free to ask? why you should feel weary? I mean no offense at all when I made the post, since I think that this forum is created to compare and contrast believe. That is all i mean.

 

[dianaiad]

You practice it and you know it. Lying about lying doesn’t make the lie a truth. Would you like a list of Mormon lies? Would that make you feel better? I’ll provide them if you wish, but I am sure that you will only feel “persecuted”.

I thought so.

I deny it…and that is considered proof that I do it. yep, figures.

but by all means, provide me a list of 'Mormon lies."

Do try, however, not to include differences in beliefs as 'lies."

After all, a lie isn’t a lie if the speaker believes what he or she is saying–whether the listener agrees or not.

 

[dianaiad]

Oh, a MADB apologist. Seriously, you are throwing made up history all over the place and you are asking me for a CFR?

How many quotes would you like? You know very well that BY is a gold mine for this sort of thing.

One. In context, would be nice.

 

[swariffin]

Thank you, but your claim was that MORMONS have something like this. That’s the reference I’m asking for.

I was asking if the Mormon has that kind of believe since somebody posted that Joseph Smith was lying? If you believe that the Mormon does not have that kind of teaching, please just say so. I am interested with the Taqiyya because somebody gave the reference from Quran and the Muslim confirmed that. Joseph Smith is a Prophet according to you, and Abraham was a prophet to me (and to you too, I think). Both Abraham and J. Smith lied for their own defense as stated.

 

[swariffin]

swariffin, while attaching Taqiyya with mormons and Islam, you are conveniently killing two birds with one stone. Is that fantasy or fanaticism?

To me it is clear that Jesus said that the Devil is the father of all lies. What fantasy do you think I have?

 

[swariffin]

Obviously, Catholicism and Islam have a multitude of profound differences, but here is an important similarity: both believe in a closed canon, the Bible or the Koran, that cannot be added to by further revelation, much less revelation today. Protestants also so believe.

Why do Catholics, Muslims and Protestants believe in such a closed canon?

Please note that I am NOT asking why anyone disbelieves that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God or disbelieves Mormonism in general. I have read what you have posted about that. I am asking only about why Catholics and others do not believe that there is continuing revelation.

I think that all Christians (and Jews) believe that, in the past, God spoke to man through prophets. So, to add another variation of the above question, why would God, who loves us, not want to speak to us, and send prophets, today (or in the 19th Century)?

I am not in missionary mode here, I doubt that anyone has ever been converted on this forum, I am just asking out of curiosity.

The RCC believes in private revelations such as the one to St. Bernadette, or to St. Faustina for example. But, such revelation first is good for the person only. To make such revelation common, we need to see the fruit of such revelation first.

 

[flameburns623]

You are right. My apologies. He was removed from the First Presidency in January–understandable, given that he was so very vocally opposing Joseph. He protested that, and requested a new hearing, which was granted. It is THAT which took place on April 18th, and resulted in his excommunication. He was very aware of the hearing. The surprise was the excommunication rather than simply being removed from office.

In this case, it was also the fact that William Law freely admits to plotting to murder Joseph Smith before he published the paper. True, you may approve of what he wrote, but I am increasingly bemused by this willingness to forgive Law for blatantly plotting to kill Joseph, for conspiring with the Grey’s to see it done----and to think Joseph deserved to be murdered because he broke up a printing press.

Amazing, the way that works.

Can I jump in here and thank you, dianaiad, for being an informed, reasonable, and articulate apologist for the LFD Church? It is in the open discussion of these sorts of details that a real dialogue about truth can take place. Even though the discussions themselves may generate a bit of dispepsia on all sides.

God bless!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ok.

Y’see, it’s not a question that should even occur to someone who is simply curious; there is no reason, no prompting evidence to support it. The only people who would think to ask are people who have already read, or heard, some anti-Mormon publication that pulls this phony comparison out of their “Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers” and “Mormons believe that God had Sex with Mary” playbook.

That is because you have spent too much time at MADB.

Intelligent people who know a little bit about Islam and a little bit about Mormonism, often notice the similarities of the two religious movements beginnings.

Charistmatic leader
Claims of God’s church in apostasy
New scriptures – that self-support the charismatic leader
New “laws” and practices
etc, etc, etc

Islam and Mormonism actually have a lot in common, in this sense. Theologically, not much at all.

There is no comparison of Catholicism to Islam. If you know a little bit about each, you would be hard pressed to notice similarities, other than, a belief in God and OT as part of a canon.

And since this is a Catholic forum, Catholics already know the differences between Catholicism and Islam. However, there are a bazillion threads about different aspects of Islam.

(shrug) It’s a dead giveaway that the questioner isn’t actually curious; it’s a standard opening attack for someone who has already made up his or her mind.

That is your preconditioned belief.

You know…like asking a Catholic why they worship idols?

Diana

Search, you will find numerous topics on this subject. Far more than Mormons and Islam.

 

[dianaiad]

It is just that no one is interested yet to compare Lutheran and Islam or Islam w.r.t other. Just wait and and see, somebody will. Or, if you prefer to do so you can start one.

In this forum, everybody is free to ask? why you should feel weary? I mean no offense at all when I made the post, since I think that this forum is created to compare and contrast believe. That is all i mean.

No, I thank you. I have this rule: I ask only true believing members of a belief system about what they believe. Nobody else will be able to give me accurate information, no matter how objective they think they are.

So, if I want to compare, I will ask (for instance) the Catholics what they believe, and the Christian Scientists what they believe, and do my own comparing. Everybody else will give me a skewed, biased assessment; it’s impossible not to: the topic is too volatile for anybody to be truly unbiased.

 

[dianaiad]

That is because you have spent too much time at MADB…

Oh, help…what’s MADB? (I’m risking feeling dumb, I suppose, but what ARE you talking about?)

Intelligent people who know a little bit about Islam and a little bit about Mormonism, often notice the similarities of the two religious movements beginnings…

I utterly fail to see how. Really.

Charistmatic leader
Claims of God’s church in apostasy
New scriptures – that self-support the charismatic leader
New “laws” and practices
etc, etc, etc .

Gee, sounds like Martin Luther to me. But y’know what? nobody is asking about the differences between Lutherans and Islam.

Islam and Mormonism actually have a lot in common, in this sense. Theologically, not much at all.

In that sense, Christianity as a whole and Islam has a lot in common. So do the vast majority of Protestant sects.

There is no comparison of Catholicism to Islam. If you know a little bit about each, you would be hard pressed to notice similarities, other than, a belief in God and OT as part of a canon.

(grin) And yet there IS a thread, albeit over a year ago, titled ‘Islam and Catholicism…" I’m just sayin’, is all…

And since this is a Catholic forum, Catholics already know the differences between Catholicism and Islam. However, there are a bazillion threads about different aspects of Islam.

Which is why a thread about Catholicism and Islam makes sense in here. I mean…in HERE, Catholics and Muslims can debate each other with some authority and credibility. What is the point of asking either one what the differences between Islam and MORMONISM are?

It’s just that I have never once seen the question asked by someone who wasn’t already indoctrinated by some anti-Mormon publication, and primed to argue…not a request for information, but rather an invitation to battle. It usually, (but not always) is a Baptist or other fundamentalist Protestant. I wasn’t expecting it in a Catholic forum. Came as a surprise.

That is your preconditioned belief.

No, actually, it is twenty years of hard experience. It’s ‘pre-conditioned’ in the way that bumping your head on a low door sill conditions you to duck when walking through low doors.

Search, you will find numerous topics on this subject. Far more than Mormons and Islam.

Actually, I did. I found many threads about Islam. Many threads about Mormonism. Two or three about the differences and similarities between them…and absolutely NONE about the differences and similarities between Islam and any other specific sect–except that one about Islam and Catholicism posted over a year ago.

Never mind. He asked a question. I asked a question. Perhaps neither one has been answered sufficiently, but I think I’ll stop asking mine.