What is the difference in Protestants being "saved" and Catholic salvation?

[zz912]

I have NOT the FAINTEST idea what it is that you’re asking me to do or not do. Kindly explain to this 71 year old, non technical guy, and I will gladly comply:thumbsup

God Bless you,

Patrick

When you click on “Quote” button to respond to someone, the prior post prefills in the text box. There is a quoting function that begins and ends the quote you are replying to that starts with “QUOTE=XXX” which automatically links to the post you are replying to (you can see it as the blue triangle symbol that you can click on in a quote). You are changing or modifying this and so the link is lost. When you are quoting someone, just leave the quote alone and respond below it.

 

[JMM1957]

Certainly! I was just adding on to your post.

 

[Faith1960]

Catholics believe that anyone at all can go to Heaven, Catholic or Pentecostal, Unitarian or Jew, Muslim or agnostic. However, we believe that the only Way any of them get there is through Jesus Christ and by His Catholic Church…

How would an agnostic, Jew or Muslim get to heaven through Jesus Christ and the Church when they don’t believe in Jesus and aren’t members of the Church?

 

[In_His_Grace]

The problem with “taking the bait”, so to speak, is that normally in these discussions the non-Catholic does not:

1. believe that a true and continuous church exists anywhere, in any substantial way, so the point is moot. The skeptic might believe in a nebulous church-with-no-substantial-structure, but that’s not what the Church is.
   or
2. Is not willing to acknowledge or submit to it even if he believes it could exist somewhere, anywhere, also making the discussion pointless
   or
3. does not understand what a Church is, what it’s source is, the nature of it, etc…

In a nutshell, you are asking for a sign, or proof, of a person, Jesus Christ. Good luck finding proof that will satisfy skepticism. Proof will not satisfy, faith will.

…Proof will not satisfy, faith will.

I agree. Faith in Jesus Christ will satisfy. Where you are misguided is in equating faith in Jesus Christ with faith in a church, the Catholic Church and when all is said your belief that “today’s CC is the One founded by Jesus Christ” is, in the end really a matter of faith on your part.

CCC
812 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the “Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission.”

 

[clem456]

I agree. Faith in Jesus Christ will satisfy. Where you are misguided is in equating faith in Jesus Christ with faith in a church, the Catholic Church.

I have faith in Jesus Christ.
When did the Head separate from his Body?
Surely as a Christian you believe in the resurrection?

Or did Christ’s executioners win?
Did they separate Christ from his people, 2000 years ago, when they killed him?

 

[pablope]

You miss the point of what theBible Alone means. It does not mean that the Bible is an end in itself.

Scripture is there to lead one to Christ. By it we know truth from error. We know that the doctrine of Purgatory is against the Gospel along with the sale of indulgences.

Actually…Eazy…this is not what the Bible says to know the truth from error.

1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Listening to apostolic authority…as John says.

 

[pablope]

The history is not as neat as you think. Jerome did not approve them.

Yes…Jerome had opinions…but in the end he submitted to the Church:shamelesspopery.com/st-jerome-on-the-deuterocanon/

*Jerome gets to his explaination of Daniel, and makes it clear that while he doesn’t like that the Catholic version is based on a heretic’s translation, he’s willing to submit to the “judgment of the churches”:
I also told the reader that the version read in the Christian churches was not that of the Septuagint translators but that of Theodotion. It is true, I said that the Septuagint version was in this book very different from the original, and that it was condemned by the right judgment of the churches of Christ; but the fault was not mine who only stated the fact, but that of those who read the version. We have four versions to choose from: those of Aquila, Symmachus, the Seventy, and Theodotion. The churches choose to read Daniel in the version of Theodotion. What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? *

Question for you, Eazy…since you cite Jerome, I assume you agree with St. Jerome.

Are you too, like Jerome, willing to submit to the judgement of the Churches, to include the 7 books in your Bible?

They were not in Cardinal Cagetan’s list of books. At the time they where written, they were not received as inspired.

 

[pablope]

The lurkers are eagerly awaiting, are there any Catholics up to the task of proving from scripture and/or history that “today’s CC is the One Founded by Jesus”?

pax

St. Optatus:

calledtocommunion.com/2011/06/st-optatus-on-schism-and-the-bishop-of-rome/

St. Optatus’s Against the Donatists is composed of seven books (see the table of contents). After laying out the history of the schism in Book One, he turns in Book Two to the question: “Which is the One True Catholic Church and Where is it to be Found?” In what may be the most important and revealing statement in the whole of his work, he writes:

*For it was not Caecilian who went forth from Majorinus, your father’s father,12 but it was Majorinus who deserted Caecilian; nor was it Caecilian who separated himself from the Chair of Peter, or from the Chair of Cyprian — but Majorinus, on whose Chair you sit — a Chair which had no existence before Majorinus himself.13
*

Later in the work he shows that St. Peter, the Head of the Apostles, was the first to occupy the Episcopal Cathedra in Rome, and that the purpose of this Cathedra was to preserve unity among all Christians, including even the other Apostles. He writes:

You cannot then deny that you do know that upon Peter first in the City of Rome was bestowed the Episcopal Cathedra, on which sat Peter, the Head of all the Apostles … that, in this one Cathedra, unity should be preserved by all [in qua unica Cathedra unitas ab omnibus servaretur], lest the other Apostles might claim each for himself separate Cathedras, so that he who should set up a second Cathedra against the unique Cathedra would already be a schismatic and a sinner. Well then, on the one Cathedra, which is the first of the Endowments, Peter was the first to sit.25

 

[clem456]

The lurkers are eagerly awaiting, are there any Catholics up to the task of proving from scripture and/or history that “today’s CC is the One Founded by Jesus”?

pax

You’re familiar with the proofs and so you disagree. Ok.

Let’s see what we agree on.

Do you believe that Jesus founded a Church, any Church?

If you do believe Jesus is the head of a Body, do you think that body has a substantial and definitive presence in the world, or is it a purely spiritual reality, or just an ideal to aimed for?

If you do think the Church has a substantial and definitive presence, has this Church existed continuously, or is it ruptured, or lost, or now diffused so as to be unrecognizable?

 

[In_His_Grace]

You’re familiar with the proofs and so you disagree. Ok.

Yes, I am very much familiar with the proofs, the apologetics used by Catholics, three years of studying Catholicism, lots of books written by Catholics and I disagree.

Let’s see what we agree on.

Do you believe that Jesus founded a Church, any Church?

Absolutely!

If you do believe Jesus is the head of a Body, do you think that body has a substantial and definitive presence in the world, or is it a purely spiritual reality, or just an ideal to aimed for?

That the church that Jesus established has a “substantial and definitive presence in the world” is self evident.

16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:16-20)

If you do think the Church has a substantial and definitive presence, has this Church existed continuously, or is it ruptured, or lost, or now diffused so as to be unrecognizable?

The church is divided which truly does grieve my soul per John 17 but still the Gospel is being preached and the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church (Matthew 16:18).

Peace be with you.

In His Grace

 

[JMM1957]

Yes, I am very much familiar with the proofs, the apologetics used by Catholics, three years of studying Catholicism, lots of books written by Catholics and I disagree.

Absolutely!

That the church that Jesus established has a “substantial and definitive presence in the world” is self evident.

16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:16-20)

The church is divided which truly does grieve my soul per John 17 but still the Gospel is being preached and the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church (Matthew 16:18).

Peace be with you.

In His Grace

If I may ask another question here please, you answered the first question by saying Jesus absolutely did establish “a” Church. Your last answer said you believe the church is divided, although you agree the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church. So, you believe the Church that Jesus established in the first century is now divided, actually splintered, correct? We know from Scripture (1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-6, 2 Peter 2:1) and I could list 50 more, that false teachers would come among the believers from within and without, introducing and spreading destructive doctrine. Remember, 1 John says, “They went out from us, but they were not really of our number, if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.” So, here we see, even in John’s time, the defection was already in progress. But, Jesus also said in Matt. 5:14, “a city on a hill cannot be hidden, nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket.” See here, Jesus true followers (Church) will be plain for all to see, it is a visible Church. There is only one Church that has been visible since the time of Jesus, the Catholic Church.

 

[In_His_Grace]

If I may ask another question here please, you answered the first question by saying Jesus absolutely did establish “a” Church. Your last answer said you believe the church is divided, although you agree the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church. So, you believe the Church that Jesus established in the first century is now divided, actually splintered, correct? We know from Scripture (1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-6, 2 Peter 2:1) and I could list 50 more, that false teachers would come among the believers from within and without, introducing and spreading destructive doctrine. Remember, 1 John says, “They went out from us, but they were not really of our number, if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.” So, here we see, even in John’s time, the defection was already in progress. But, Jesus also said in Matt. 5:14, “a city on a hill cannot be hidden, nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket.” See here, Jesus true followers (Church) will be plain for all to see, it is a visible Church. There is only one Church that has been visible since the time of Jesus, the Catholic Church.

There is only one Church that has been visible since the time of Jesus, the Catholic Church.

Prove it!

 

[In_His_Grace]

I have faith in Jesus Christ.
When did the Head separate from his Body?
Surely as a Christian you believe in the resurrection?

Or did Christ’s executioners win?
Did they separate Christ from his people, 2000 years ago, when they killed him?

I have faith in Jesus Christ.

amen! As for the rest of your points HOW INSULTING!

Blessings

 

[JMM1957]

Prove it!

I did have a question imbedded in my post that you didn’t answer.

 

[JMM1957]

Prove it!

You remember the account of Peter and some of the other Apostles when they were on trial before the Sanhedrin in Acts 5:34-39 don’t you? Remember also what Gamaliel the Pharisee said to his fellow Israelites, verse 38, “For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them, you may even find yourselves fighting against God.”

The Catholic Church has existed by that name for 2000 yrs., and many have tried to destroy it, but it has survived every assault of time. It never vanished, and never will, Jesus promised it.

 

[Michael68]

The lurkers are eagerly awaiting, are there any Catholics up to the task of proving from scripture and/or history that “today’s CC is the One Founded by Jesus”?

pax

Is this taunting? Not very nice, how about you try to disprove the Catholic Church is not Christ’s Church?

 

[JMM1957]

Prove it!

It is my assumption, maybe I’m wrong, that you are looking for the supposed “missing link” between the twelve Apostles and the late first century/very early second century use of the words “Catholic Church” spoken of by Ignatius of Antioch? In order to make the connection, we have to go by two things, first, the teachings/writings of the ECF’s of the first and second centuries and how they conform with Scripture, and secondly, the historical record itself, of which we have much surviving writings. It would be too much typing for me to go into detail here, but you can research this yourself…the ECF’s that actually had contact directly with some of the Apostles, such as Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, and Irenaeus (disciple of Polycarp). The Church has put many of the pieces of the puzzle together to make the link to the Apostolic era, which gives satisfactory proof needed for those who question it. It just comes down to your acceptance of it or not.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Is this taunting? Not very nice, how about you try to disprove the Catholic Church is not Christ’s Church?

Taunting? Not very nice? I’m 60 years old, born and raised Baptist until my recent decision to become Lutheran. No church I have ever belonged to claimed to be the “one true church”. Prove it!

 

[Michael68]

Taunting? Not very nice? I’m 60 years old, born and raised Baptist until my recent decision to become Lutheran. No church I have ever belonged to claimed to be the “one true church”. Prove it!

I’m sorry sir! I’m a cradle Catholic and have always known we are Christ’s Church

 

[PRmerger]

Taunting?

Yes. Taunting.

I’d be careful, IHG. It is good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics.

Charitable dialogue is the fallback position here.

No church I have ever belonged to claimed to be the “one true church”.

This statement is a peculiar one, as it implies that this is a good thing to not be able to claim to be the “one true church”.

I know that I certainly wouldn’t wish to be part of a church that didn’t believe it was the authentic church of Jesus Christ.

Now, I suppose you could say, “But there isn’t just one authentic church that Christ started”…but that would make me go…

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws....s/2014/05/doesnt_make_any_sense_anchorman.gif

for surely there is just One Head and One Body. Not One Head and Tens of Thousands of Bodies.

Right?