What is the Gospel?

[2nd_Adam]

You would agree that there is an authoritative interpretation then?

Of course, since the Word of God is the Word of God. God the Holy Spirit must illuminate truth in the Scriptures for us fallen creatures to understand . You must have the Holy Spirit to understand the Scirptures with effectual results. Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables?

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, you posted that there are only a few “interpreted for us” as Catholics. I’d like to know how you know this?

Because I enjoy discussing things with Catholic siblings. I thought that was common knowledge for most orthodox Catholics. Oh well, that’s why we have Catholic Answers. Do you consider yourself to be an orthodox Catholic or a cafeteria Catholic?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Catholics do the same. Though I would say “God” is completely sufficient for me, but close enough.

Um…nope. This would be “the Catholic Church according to 2nd”, not the actual Catholic Church.

There is nothing we can do to earn our own salvation. Zilch, zero, nada.

We can however reject God’s offer of salvation, unfortunately many do so.

Chuck

This discussion should continue on the TULIP thread. It is a matter of sufficiency of the Scriptures and the sufficiency of the person and work of Jesus Christ which really divides us. Catholic siblings believe somewhat similar to my dear Arminian Protestant brothers on these issues. They are Free Willy brothers in the Lord just like you guys.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Free willy, fact or fiction?

 

[Carlan]

What is the gospel?

2nd, I do wish you would confirm some of the posts we submit. Is is so hard for you to confirm what we have to offer?

Let me try this.
The four gospels are central because Jesus is at their center.
The Catholic Church in her doctrines, life and worship perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes. The word of God. The Gospel is the word. The Bible contains the Word of God passed onto us from Jesus down through the ages by his twelve Apostles whom he commissioned to do the job Can you confirm that without any qualification?. Carlan

 

[Philthy]

Nobody posted anything remotely about OSAS. I simply posted sound doctrine from Scripture.

Im sure that was your intent - to post sound doctrine from Scripture. The problem is that you have been rather cavalier in your comments. You probably do not realize how many loose ends you create with your unScriptural comments such as “God is the Gospel”. Its so ambiguous as to be useless - except perhaps for atheists. In addition, I pointed out some of the “sound” conclusions one could draw from your comments and explained the logic behind them. That is known as a communicative exchange. I explain my ideas, where they came from, the logic I employ to arrive at them, etc and I offer them to you in the sincere desire to dialogue. Are you capable of exchange also? Are you interested in dialogue - or are you here to monologue? If you are interested in dialogue, please consider the following comments you made:

God the Father sent His Son into this sinned cursed world to suffer and die for the ungodly and wicked to bring us near to God.

Due to its ambiguity, here is one possible (it is not necessary) conclusion from this statement. **
Everyone** who is evil has been brought near to God by Christ. Do you agree with the conclusion or disagree with it? If you disagree with it, how would amend your original statement to eliminate it as a possible conclusion?

We now have God as our Heavenly Father in which we can glorify Him and enjoy Him forever.

This statement combined with your prior statements that I addressed and your insistence that salvation is 100% God and has nothing to do with us, would very easily lead some to believe that every is saved because God loves us and none of us can lose that salvation because it is not contingent upon anything that we do. Now you claim to disagree with OSAS, yet your comments have not excluded that “doctrine from Scripture” as a possibility. How would you amend your comments to better reflect your understanding of the gospel??

If you wish to present yourself as one capable of teaching, and your goal is to lead others to Christ in such a forum, you need to be able to clearly articulate your positions and respond genuinely to those who misunderstand you as a result of your failure to do so.

Peace be with you!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Do you understand that just a few verses are actually interpreted for you as a Catholic? The majority of the Scirpture verses do not have official Catholic interpretations.

Do you understand that just a few verses are actually defined infallibly, but the entirety of the Gospel has been handed down by an infallible Church for 2,000 years?

 

[2nd_Adam]

What is the gospel?

In the OP question, what is the gospel, I understood this to mean to be what is the gospel that is preached or proclaimed by the Apostles, and is different than the four gospel accounts. The Bible cannot only by the Word of God passed onto us from Jesus down through the ages by his twelve Apostles since the OT is the Word of God just like the NT. It is all God-breathed. The Bible contains more than the four gospel accounts, and the NT Epistles. Actually, the OT is all about Jesus Christ and Him crucified… through types, and shadows. Jesus confirmed in John 5 that the OT Scriptures pointed to Him for life.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m sure Matthew 16 is one of those verses! Maybe other Catholics can share which additonal Scriptures have dogmatic interpertatons?

The following was compiled by Jimmy Akin:

As far as I have been able to document, only seven passages of Scripture have had their senses partially (not fully) defined by the extraordinary magisterium. These definitions were made by the Council of Trent:

(1) The reference being “born of water and the Spirit” in John 3:5 does include the idea of baptism.

(2–3) In telling the apostles “Do this [the Eucharist] in memory of me” in Luke 22:19 and 1 Corinthians 11:24, Jesus appointed the apostles priests.

(4–5) In Matthew 18:18 and John 20:22–23, Jesus did confer a power on the apostles to forgive sins, and not everyone shares this power.

(6) Romans 5:12 refers to the reality of original sin.

(7) The presbyters referred to in James 5:14 are ordained and not simply elder members of the Christian community.

**The Limits of Scripture Interpretation **
By Jimmy Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0101bt.asp

 

[2nd_Adam]

Im sure that was your intent - to post sound doctrine from Scripture. The problem is that you have been rather cavalier in your comments. You probably do not realize how many loose ends you create with your unScriptural comments such as “God is the Gospel”. Its so ambiguous as to be useless - except perhaps for atheists. In addition, I pointed out some of the “sound” conclusions one could draw from your comments and explained the logic behind them. That is known as a communicative exchange. I explain my ideas, where they came from, the logic I employ to arrive at them, etc and I offer them to you in the sincere desire to dialogue. Are you capable of exchange also? Are you interested in dialogue - or are you here to monologue? If you are interested in dialogue, please consider the following comments you made:

Due to its ambiguity, here is one possible (it is not necessary) conclusion from this statement. **
Everyone** who is evil has been brought near to God by Christ. Do you agree with the conclusion or disagree with it? If you disagree with it, how would amend your original statement to eliminate it as a possible conclusion?

This statement combined with your prior statements that I addressed and your insistence that salvation is 100% God and has nothing to do with us, would very easily lead some to believe that every is saved because God loves us and none of us can lose that salvation because it is not contingent upon anything that we do. Now you claim to disagree with OSAS, yet your comments have not excluded that “doctrine from Scripture” as a possibility. How would you amend your comments to better reflect your understanding of the gospel??

If you wish to present yourself as one capable of teaching, and your goal is to lead others to Christ in such a forum, you need to be able to clearly articulate your positions and respond genuinely to those who misunderstand you as a result of your failure to do so.

Peace be with you!

Please give me the post number and I will try to address it.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Do you understand that just a few verses are actually defined infallibly, but the entirety of the Gospel has been handed down by an infallible Church for 2,000 years?

I understand the Catholic belief. However, cafeteria Catholics need to understand that they will not find dogmatic interpertations of most of the Scriptures such as Matthew 16.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The following was compiled by Jimmy Akin:

As far as I have been able to document, only seven passages of Scripture have had their senses partially (not fully) defined by the extraordinary magisterium. These definitions were made by the Council of Trent:

(1) The reference being “born of water and the Spirit” in John 3:5 does include the idea of baptism.

(2–3) In telling the apostles “Do this [the Eucharist] in memory of me” in Luke 22:19 and 1 Corinthians 11:24, Jesus appointed the apostles priests.

(4–5) In Matthew 18:18 and John 20:22–23, Jesus did confer a power on the apostles to forgive sins, and not everyone shares this power.

(6) Romans 5:12 refers to the reality of original sin.

(7) The presbyters referred to in James 5:14 are ordained and not simply elder members of the Christian community.

**The Limits of Scripture Interpretation **
By Jimmy Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0101bt.asp

It’s interesting that Matthew 16 is not on that short list.

Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [2] I will build my church, and the gates of hell [3] shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed [4] in heaven.” 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

 

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
I did not post that Matthew 16 is the only Scripture that is interpreted for you. I was asking for help from orthodox Catholic Christians who may know which actual Scriptures have dogmatic interpretations for Catholics. This is a Catholic Forum Site with a wealth of information in regards to the orthodox Catholic Faith. Maybe you can ask an apologist on this site for the answer?

I don’t recall you said that. I believe you said that there are only a few interpreted that you knew of. sooooo if you know them why not tell us and at the same time give us your interpretation of them so that we can explain the truth of them to you if you are wrong .I’m not an apologist 2nd but Philthy does pretty good,Carlan

 

[jmcrae]

So, you would have to conclude that you are in charge of your ultimate eternal fate; therefore, you are sovereign in salvation, correct?

Nobody said anything of the sort.

When we choose for God to save us from our sins, for example by making use of the Confessional whenever we need to, it is still God’s work, 100%. All we do is show up and claim His forgiveness, but He is the one doing all of the work of forgiving us of our sins. We also have the choice to deny that we are sinners, and stay home from Confession - in which case, if we were to die the same night, we would not go to Heaven.

We can’t “work” our way into Heaven, but we can certainly “work” our way into Hell, simply by not taking advantage of the channels of God’s grace that He has provided for us.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
I did not post that Matthew 16 is the only Scripture that is interpreted for you. I was asking for help from orthodox Catholic Christians who may know which actual Scriptures have dogmatic interpretations for Catholics. This is a Catholic Forum Site with a wealth of information in regards to the orthodox Catholic Faith. Maybe you can ask an apologist on this site for the answer?

I don’t recall you said that. I believe you said that there are only a few interpreted that you knew of. sooooo if you know them why not tell us and at the same time give us your interpretation of them so that we can explain the truth of them to you if you are wrong .I’m not an apologist 2nd but Philthy does pretty good,Carlan

Praise God for the Internet and Catholic Answers!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Nobody said anything of the sort.

When we choose for God to save us from our sins, for example by making use of the Confessional whenever we need to, it is still God’s work, 100%. All we do is show up and claim His forgiveness, but He is the one doing all of the work of forgiving us of our sins. We also have the choice to deny that we are sinners, and stay home from Confession - in which case, if we were to die the same night, we would not go to Heaven.
We can’t “work” our way into Heaven, but we can certainly “work” our way into Hell, simply by not taking advantage of the channels of God’s grace that He has provided for us.

I see the gospel as proclaiming the good news in what God has done for us. It seems you are indirectly saying that the gospel is what we need to do for ourselves to be saved, maybe? Please see what I highlighted in red. What happens if you stayed home from confession because you had no transportation to church, or you decided to stay home with your kids instead?

 

[jmcrae]

I see the gospel as proclaiming the good news in what God has done for us. It seems you are indirectly saying that the gospel is what we need to do for ourselves to be saved, maybe?

The Gospel is the good news that we can be saved, and that Jesus Christ has done all of the hard stuff on our behalf, to make it easy for us.

Please see what I highlighted in red. What happens if you stayed home from confession because you had no transportation to church, or you decided to stay home with your kids instead?

If you had sincerely intended to go, but you were prevented by circumstances outside of your control, then God would read your situation as if you had actually gone.

But if you were perfectly able to go, but used your kids or something else as an excuse, because in your heart of hearts you think you know more than the Church, or because you don’t happen to like the priest, God will not look kindly on you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Gospel is the good news that we can be saved, and that Jesus Christ has done all of the hard stuff on our behalf, to make it easy for us.

If you had sincerely intended to go, but you were prevented by circumstances outside of your control, then God would read your situation as if you had actually gone.

But if you were perfectly able to go, but used your kids or something else as an excuse, because in your heart of hearts you think you know more than the Church, or because you don’t happen to like the priest, God will not look kindly on you.

That sure seems a very tough way to live out the Christian life to the praise and glory of God’s saving and transforming grace. If our goal as Christians is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, then the uncertainty of not knowing that you will eternally be in the kingdom of God would work against you… at least from the glasses perspective that I am wearing. What happens if I live a life pleasing to God, and I slipped up for the last two months at the end of my life due to some circumstances in my life?

 

[clmowry]

That sure seems a very tough way to live out the Christian life to the praise and glory of God’s saving and transforming grace. If our goal as Christians is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, then the uncertainty of not knowing that you will eternally be in the kingdom of God would work against you… at least from the glasses perspective that I am wearing. What happens if I live a life pleasing to God, and I slipped up for the last two months at the end of my life due to some circumstances in my life?

Only God can know for sure.

From a speculative stand point, this would depend on what you mean by “slipped up”:

If you mean you are in a state of “unrepentant mortal sin” then you go to hell;
If you mean you are in a state of “repented sin” or “unrepentant venial sin” then you go to heaven.

This is why we Hope for our eternal salvation, but do not presume it.

Chuck

 

[jmcrae]

That sure seems a very tough way to live out the Christian life to the praise and glory of God’s saving and transforming grace. If our goal as Christians is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, then the uncertainty of not knowing that you will eternally be in the kingdom of God would work against you… at least from the glasses perspective that I am wearing. What happens if I live a life pleasing to God, and I slipped up for the last two months at the end of my life due to some circumstances in my life?

First, if you had lived your whole life for God, it is extremely unlikely that you would “slip up” in the last two months of your life - well-formed habits of Christian living survive even such things as mental illnesses and physical deterioration - I have heard of a case where someone who was babbling senselessly, when the priest came in and made the sign of the Cross, she responded appropriately, and coherently, and was able to make a good Confession and receive Holy Communion before she died.

I know a man - an extremely elderly priest - who has the mental illness that comes about from alcoholism - he has no idea where he is, most of the time, but he can say Mass perfectly, and even gives a pretty good homily. He has no idea what city he’s in, but while he is saying Mass, he is, or he appears to be, in his right mind. Of course as soon as the Mass is over and he has put his street clothes back on, he is once again completely befuddled. But he still has his faith in God.

Secondly, mortal sin requires three conditions: first, the action must be a grave sin. Two months before your death, it is extremely unlikely that you would have the necessary strength to commit a grave sin, even if you wanted to. Second, you must have the full knowledge that the action is a grave sin. And third, you must have the free choice to commit the sin. Two months before you die, you are most likely going to be in a nursing facility or a hospital. Your movements are not going to be free. You’ll probably be on a lot of pain medication, which means that your will - your decision-making - is not going to be completely under your control. Under these circumstances, it is almost impossible to commit any kind of a sin, let alone a mortal sin.

But let’s say you are a new convert, so you don’t have well-established Christian habits. Let’s say you do something stupid (a mortal sin) that causes you to be killed (for example, for some reason you decide to rob a bank, and you are killed by the bank’s security guard) - and the whole thing has come about because of a lapse in judgement that is normally uncharacteristic, for you.

God will take your state of mind into account, whether you were acting freely, or whether you were having a moment of temporary insanity - and whether you had in fact turned your back on God and His way of life, or whether, had you lived, you would have turned back to Him in sorrow and penance.

 

[fhansen]

What happens if you stayed home from confession because you had no transportation to church, or you decided to stay home with your kids instead?

Well, Catholic salvation is at least in some capacity synergistic-God and us working towards the same goal- so if we desire to be obedient to the means God provides -sacraments, for instance- but physically cannot, then He’ll either provide a way to make it happen anyway or override the means and judge the desire-“God judges by the heart”. But, generally speaking, in life the disposition of our heart is revealed by our acts. As Adam and Eve fell by an act, we rise by our grace-enabled acts, to the extent we’re allowed and depending on the gifts we’ve been given.

In practice, I’m not sure the net effect is so different. Catholics believe that they’re being saved-and must be vigilant in perseverance at the same time. And while Protestants may believe that their salvation is a done deal, they’re still keeping an eye on themselves anyway to be sure they really are living in such a way as to indicate they’re numbered among the elect. If they believe that it’s at all possible for any person to be fooled into thinking they’re saved only to find out later they’re not, then logically no one can ever have 100% certainty for themselves, either.