Stephen168
New member
Considering the latter-day-saint movement stands or falls on the believability of Joseph Smith, I think only two matter; the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon.
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TexanKnight
Guest
I totally understand your refusal to answer the scenario.
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TexanKnight
Guest
that dodged my question…and I understand whyThese sorts of discussions were already handled during the Donatist heresy. If a priest or bishop, under the duress of torture apostatized, Donatism claimed that the priest’s sacraments were no longer valid. But that isn’t how sacraments, that isn’t how grace works – in the words of St. Paul, “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.” A priest’s holiness, or lack thereof in this case, is unrelated to efficacy of the grace of the sacraments he dispenses.
You could even likewise say, “Well, see, Judas was chosen by Jesus but he still betrayed Him. Why then should I listen to the rest of the Apostles?”Sin was, is, and will be a part of the human condition until the very last human being dies – some of those humans happen to be priests and bishops of the Catholic Church … And some them also happen to be ministers of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, as well. Food for thought.
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TexanKnight
Guest
it stands on more than that…i am so very happy you are where you believe the Spirit led you. I am where the Holy Spirit led me. Is it so wrong to be happy for others who are happy? Is it so necessary to tear them down?
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
I did.
I said I know of no such organization.
I then asked YOU a question:
Do you?
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adamhovey1988
Guest
I’m not sure I can think of one either
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
He didn’t dodge your question.
And why would he?
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TexanKnight
Guest
it was a hypothetical question…you refuse to answer…your "answer is a dodge. It’s cool. I am able to ascertain your response by your refusal to answer.
And it validates my position. Thank you very much
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TexanKnight
Guest
the question was NOT if you knew of such an organization, but what would you do IN that situation.
No need to dodge…really
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
Ohhh, so it’s hypothetical. Hypothetical is hardly what serious historians engage in. Unless they are revisionist. Which is simply fantasy.
So, what REAL organization are you describing?
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I think he wants you to play along with his hypothetical. Which, is all kinds of logical fallacies, starting with poisoning the well. Add in straw man, slippery slope, black-or-white, false cause, loaded question, begging the question, no true Scotsman, etc.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
if I may ask TexasKnight: what brought you to the opinion that the Mormon gospel is correct?
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TexanKnight
Guest
to me, dodges and insults are just as good as answers. Thank you for YOUR answer too
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dcana
Guest
As everyone should know, it’s just a made-up belief necessary for J.S. to start a church after his own liking.
I guess the “logic” goes like this:
Christian churches today (as well as in the 19th c.) teach things that are incompatible with Mormonism, the Trinity being one prominent example. The Apostles and the members of the earliest Christian Church were, of course, Mormons. Therefore, there must have been a “Great Apostasy”.
It doesn’t make a difference if there’s no historical proof; if it makes no sense considering Who started the Catholic Church which He Himself said is His Church that He founded on Peter (the Rock) and which He Himself said would last until the end of time and Who , with the Father, He sent on His Apostles to be with them always, teaching them all truth; or if it goes completely against Scripture and the ways of Almighty God we see in Scripture.
“I know the Book of Mormon is true is true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I know the Mormon Church is true.”
“There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet.” They might as well include, “I know the Quran is true,” the Quran being their new “holy book” given directly to their “prophet” by an angel. Sound familiar?
It’s amazing the parallels between Mormonism and Islam. Obviously, J.S. pulled things from the Islamic religion that he thought would be useful to his made-up story and new church, along with elements of his Masonic religion. Muslims, in a similar way, believe that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were Muslims and that when Jesus walked the earth, it was not God walking the earth, but only a man. Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet; Mormons believe that he was a man who eventually became a god through “progressive transformation”. I’m not sure what Muslims would say about the whole “Christianity” thing. Probably that it is a Great Apostasy! (the “true faith” being “restored” in the 7th century by Mohammad, of course). Sound familiar? Just substitute “Joseph Smith” for “Mohammad” and “the 19th century” for the “7th century” and there you go!
Interestingly, Muslims also believe that the Trinity is an “abomination”. In J.S.‘s made-up story, he said God told him “all Christian creeds are an abomination”. Of course the Apostles’ and Nicene Creed concern primarily: The Trinity! They were developed in response to Christological and other heresies concerning God Himself and as a statement of what it is that we believe. Like this line: “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father.” Not quite to J.S.'s or his god’s liking. Abominable! Surely a sign that there must have been a “Great Apostasy” by this point in Christian history.
“O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead [us].”
I guess the “logic” goes like this:
Christian churches today (as well as in the 19th c.) teach things that are incompatible with Mormonism, the Trinity being one prominent example. The Apostles and the members of the earliest Christian Church were, of course, Mormons. Therefore, there must have been a “Great Apostasy”.
It doesn’t make a difference if there’s no historical proof; if it makes no sense considering Who started the Catholic Church which He Himself said is His Church that He founded on Peter (the Rock) and which He Himself said would last until the end of time and Who , with the Father, He sent on His Apostles to be with them always, teaching them all truth; or if it goes completely against Scripture and the ways of Almighty God we see in Scripture.
“I know the Book of Mormon is true is true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I know the Mormon Church is true.”
“There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet.” They might as well include, “I know the Quran is true,” the Quran being their new “holy book” given directly to their “prophet” by an angel. Sound familiar?
It’s amazing the parallels between Mormonism and Islam. Obviously, J.S. pulled things from the Islamic religion that he thought would be useful to his made-up story and new church, along with elements of his Masonic religion. Muslims, in a similar way, believe that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were Muslims and that when Jesus walked the earth, it was not God walking the earth, but only a man. Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet; Mormons believe that he was a man who eventually became a god through “progressive transformation”. I’m not sure what Muslims would say about the whole “Christianity” thing. Probably that it is a Great Apostasy! (the “true faith” being “restored” in the 7th century by Mohammad, of course). Sound familiar? Just substitute “Joseph Smith” for “Mohammad” and “the 19th century” for the “7th century” and there you go!
Interestingly, Muslims also believe that the Trinity is an “abomination”. In J.S.‘s made-up story, he said God told him “all Christian creeds are an abomination”. Of course the Apostles’ and Nicene Creed concern primarily: The Trinity! They were developed in response to Christological and other heresies concerning God Himself and as a statement of what it is that we believe. Like this line: “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father.” Not quite to J.S.'s or his god’s liking. Abominable! Surely a sign that there must have been a “Great Apostasy” by this point in Christian history.
“O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead [us].”
- Psalm 43:3
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
Jack Chick types ask the same type of silly hypotheticals, all based on a fanciful narrative they want us to participate in.
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TexanKnight
Guest
my gosh…it was many things…not the least of all was the Holy Spirit confirming to me.
I listed some of the miracles a year ago…and had them mocked by the loving Catholics here…so I will not make that mistake again.
Someday, the folks here will learn to love…charity will be a prt of daily contact…we can all share and be glad of our common bonds
Stephen168
New member
The subject of this thread is about the Mormon Church tearing down the Catholic Church (see your post). Science has proven Joseph Smith to be wrong about the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. The Mormon Church has moved the date of the apostasy back, so there is no empirical evidence to prove them wrong, but there is also no evidence to prove them right that is why Mormons can’t defend their Church. With no evidence, you just have to believe. Believe Joseph Smith, who was wrong about the Book of Mormon and made up the Book of Abraham…
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Micosil
Guest
How did I dodge the question?
Stephen168
New member
Wow, all I had was false analogy.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Refusing to engage with illogical rhetoric, is not dodging.
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