What is the most ancient rite close to Jesus Time?

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OrbisNonSufficit said:
Liturgy of Addai and Mari isn’t most ancient (not that you said so). Parent Liturgy from which it developed had words of institution for example. Liturgy of St. James is different story but Apostolic Constitutions predate it
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I’ve had a Syriac Orthodox tell me that the East Syriacs were once in communion with the Syriac Orthodox Church as they were under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Antioch. I guess even the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom had influences from Antioch as St Chrysostom himself was from Antioch. In a way the West and East Syriacs, Byzantines and Armenians all came from the See of Antioch.
 
Alexandria2020 said:
I guess even the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom had influences from Antioch as St Chrysostom himself was from Antioch.
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Technically that isn’t real reason. Byzantine Liturgy is in origin from Jerusalem (which is in turn from Antioch but it displaced original Rite).
Alexandria2020 said:
In a way the West and East Syriacs, Byzantines and Armenians all came from the See of Antioch.
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Every Liturgy can be traced to original Rite of Antioch. It was where Christianity at large spread from and so did Liturgical norms apparently.
 
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OrbisNonSufficit said:
Priest washing hands now has theological implications of cleansing himself from sin, but first Christians simply needed to wash their hands.
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Which also possibly went back to Jewish purification rites.

Or not. But considering that the Apostles apparently spread all over, and they were Jewish…
 
Alexandria2020 said:
so is it true that the earliest liturgies were versus populum like the ordinary form?
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The earliest information I have found goes back to Tertulian in 197 AD, in Apologeticus. That does not establish that ad orientem was universal, by any means; but that at least some places had at least some of the Mass ad orientem.

The earliest of liturgies appears to a bifurcated amalgam of Jewish practice (synagogue on Saturday) and Catholic practice of Eucharistic Meal on Sunday. And without determining if S. Paul wrote before the Gospel writers, the first example of the Eucharist beyond as part of and fulfillment of the Passover Meal is the celebration of the Eucharist on the evening of the Third Day - Christ’s Eucharist with the disciples on the road to Emmaus. He reviewed and explained Scripture, and upon arriving at Emmaus and urged to stay with the disciples, He Broke Bread… Mark 16, 12-13 and more explicitly Luke 24: 13-31.
 
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otjm said:
The earliest of liturgies appears to a bifurcated amalgam of Jewish practice (synagogue on Saturday) and Catholic practice of Eucharistic Meal on Sunday.
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isn’t the Coptic tradition kinda similar to that? I heard before the Sunday Divine Liturgy, on Saturdays they come to church for prayers as well.
 
Alexandria2020 said:
isn’t the Coptic tradition kinda similar to that? I heard before the Sunday Divine Liturgy, on Saturdays they come to church for prayers as well.
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My only experience extends to Maronite Rite and Ruthenian Byzantine Rite. On way more than one occasion I have wished I could participate in all of the other rites.
 
Alexandria2020 said:
While the West Syriacs were in the Levant and in the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire’s boundaries, the East Syriacs were further isolated away in Babylon and were in the Persian Empire’s territory. And in terms of politics, back in the days, the Roman and Persian empire were at war with each other. This situation isolated the East Syriacs from rest of Christianity.
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and this was probably why the name Nestorian came to be…the East Syriacs were not able to attend the Council of Ephesus and the sassanians, trying to further ourselves from Rome, decided that we had to accept Nestorian theology, even though there was nothing nestorian about it. The last Catholicos that was pro roman was Mar Babowai, who got martyred.
 
OrbisNonSufficit said:
Liturgy of Addai and Mari isn’t most ancient (not that you said so)
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I’ve actually heard both being called the most ancient…I wouldn’t call the Anaphora of St James as the parent of the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mari just because the 2 anaphoras were developed in 2 different locations at around the same time, with the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mari having many similairites with the Birkhat Hamazon, which is a jewish prayer…the Anaphora of St James is probably a “grandparent” of the Anaphora of Mar Theodore as the Anaphora of Mar Theodore is a variation of the Anaphora of St John Chrystosom.
 
Alexandria2020 said:
I’ve had a Syriac Orthodox tell me that the East Syriacs were once in communion with the Syriac Orthodox Church as they were under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Antioch.
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We were under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Antioch, but there are many claimants for the Throne of Antioch. The Syriac Orthodox church is just one of them and it also must be understood that by the year 410, we separated and consecrated our own Catholicos in Seleucia-Ctesiphon. The Syriac Orthodox church forms later after the Council of Chalcedon and the JSC in 1665. The MOSC forms even later in 1912
 
OrbisNonSufficit said:
We know that original Chaldean Rites had words of institution,
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hmm that’s definitely not true the oldest taksa’s don’t prove this it all. As I had said, the anaphora of Mar Addai and Mari were based on the Brikhat Hamzon. The words of institution were present but not so clearly. The epiclesis was added later. There is an Maronite Anaphora of Peter III which is basically the same thing as the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mari with a couple variations and the words of Institution put in (this time, alot more clearly.)
 
a question I have is… why are the Maronites grouped in the West Syriac category? is the Anaphora of Sharar from the Antiochian tradition?
 
From what I’ve read (and I’m open to correction) we Maronites are somewhat of a hybrid of the East and West Syriac traditions (with some Greek influence mixed in). But we tend to lean more toward the West Syriac traditions (when we’re not embracing Latinizations wholesale).
 
Thanks. Explains why they don’t have a counterpart church in the East.
 
The Maronites don’t have an Orthodox/Church of the East counterpart because when contact/communion was reestablished with the See of Rome, the entire Maronite Church embraced it.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
East and West Syriac traditions (with some Greek influence mixed in).
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The Greek influence is most probably because of how the Maronite rite is blend of both the west and east syriac traditions, and also how the west syriac is highly hellenized
 
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