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Justin_Mary
Guest
I don’t know chapter & verse, but in the Gospels Jesus says to Peter, “Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth is loose in heaven.”
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Todd_Easton
Guest
In 1 Corinthians 10:14-22, St Paul discusses the sacrificial meals of Israel and of pagans and discusses the practice of Christians in similar terms. In verse 18, he mentions the people of Israel, who made sacrificial offerings of food to God at his altar (through the ministry of his priests) and then the people ate of those sacrifices to become partners with God. In verses 14, 19-21, he mentioned pagans, who made sacrificial offerings of food (and drink) to their idols (at their altars through the ministry of their priests) and then the pagans ate (and drank) of the sacrifices to become partners with their idols, which St Paul also refers to as partaking of the table of demons and drinking the cup of demons. In 10:16-17, 21, he mentions Christians partaking of the table of the Lord and drinking the cup of the Lord, implying that Christians similarly made sacrificial offerings of food and drink to God at their altars through the ministry of their priests and then Christians ate of the sacrifices to become partners with God and with one another. Specifically, those sacrifices are the bread that Christians break which is a participation in the body of Christ and the cup (of wine) that they bless which is a participation in the blood of Christ or, in other words, the elements of “the Lord’s Supper.” See 1 Cor 11:20, 23-29. Notice that the same expression, “the cup of the Lord,” is used in both 1 Cor 10:21 and 11:27. Also notice, in Malachi 1:7, that the expression, “the table of the Lord” is a synonym for “the altar of the Lord” and an altar implies a sacrifice and a priest to offer that sacrifice.
About my use of the word “sacrifices”… Many of the sacrifices mentioned in the Old Testament involved the death of the thing being offered in sacrifice. For instance, the sacrifice of the Paschal lamb involved its death and, in this way, because of his death on the cross 2000 years ago, Jesus Christ is called our Paschal lamb. However, not all Old Testament sacrifices involved the death of the thing being offered in sacrifice. There was a class of sacrifices called “wave offerings” in which the thing being offered in sacrifice was merely waved before the Lord, alive and unharmed. The whole tribe of Levi was once offered in sacrifice in this way, as a wave offering, alive and unharmed, in Numbers 8:11-21. At a Catholic Mass, Jesus Christ is similarly offered in sacrifice alive and unharmed. If you think about it, this is the only way that Jesus can be offered in sacrifice now because “Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.” (Romans 6:9)
The author of Hebrews (Hebrews 13:10), speaks of Christians having “an altar.”
Since at least the middle of the 2nd century, Christians have seen the Eucharist as the ubiquitous sacrifice (“a pure offering”) prophesied in Malachi 1:11 See Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, chapters 41 and 117; Didache, chapter 14.
About my use of the word “sacrifices”… Many of the sacrifices mentioned in the Old Testament involved the death of the thing being offered in sacrifice. For instance, the sacrifice of the Paschal lamb involved its death and, in this way, because of his death on the cross 2000 years ago, Jesus Christ is called our Paschal lamb. However, not all Old Testament sacrifices involved the death of the thing being offered in sacrifice. There was a class of sacrifices called “wave offerings” in which the thing being offered in sacrifice was merely waved before the Lord, alive and unharmed. The whole tribe of Levi was once offered in sacrifice in this way, as a wave offering, alive and unharmed, in Numbers 8:11-21. At a Catholic Mass, Jesus Christ is similarly offered in sacrifice alive and unharmed. If you think about it, this is the only way that Jesus can be offered in sacrifice now because “Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.” (Romans 6:9)
The author of Hebrews (Hebrews 13:10), speaks of Christians having “an altar.”
Since at least the middle of the 2nd century, Christians have seen the Eucharist as the ubiquitous sacrifice (“a pure offering”) prophesied in Malachi 1:11 See Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, chapters 41 and 117; Didache, chapter 14.
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po18guy
Well-known member
NOT NOT NOT “re-sacrifice”! That is an untruth, even a lie if you will, perpetrated by the ignorant and/or malicious (not you). Whoever told you this is not a trustworthy source.
It is a re-presentation, in an unbloody manner, of the exact same sacrifice. It is precisely the “Do this” which Christ commanded.
Did you know that he Eastern Orthodox Churches have also done this for 2,000 years?
Yup.
It is a re-presentation, in an unbloody manner, of the exact same sacrifice. It is precisely the “Do this” which Christ commanded.
Did you know that he Eastern Orthodox Churches have also done this for 2,000 years?
Yup.
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EndTimes
Guest
It’s implied in Scripture - at the Last Supper - and has roots in synagogue and more practices - and was/is carried on by Apostles and Bishops and priests and disciples.
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4Him
Guest
“posture in the query” is the most creative way I’ve heard you’re not “jumping to conclusions” described… well done… 
Re: your scripture references, after reading through all of them, I don’t see any reference to today’s Catholic Mass. Let’s take Acts 2:42-43, they certainly broke bread together, but they don’t treat the bread as though Jesus was inside it…
Re: your thought, “the CCC is fully crossed referenced to Scripture”. Did the early church celebrate Mass on an alter…?
Re: your scripture references, after reading through all of them, I don’t see any reference to today’s Catholic Mass. Let’s take Acts 2:42-43, they certainly broke bread together, but they don’t treat the bread as though Jesus was inside it…
Re: your thought, “the CCC is fully crossed referenced to Scripture”. Did the early church celebrate Mass on an alter…?
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4Him
Guest
From the Council of Trent, 13th Session, Canon I : Catholic Mass is the “ unbloody sacrifice” of Jesus."
From CCC 1367 "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice ~~ “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, ~~ This sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”
From CCC 1367 "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice ~~ “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, ~~ This sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”
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whatistrue
Guest
Do you see a reference to current Baptist service? Or to Lutheran service? Looking for the text of the current GIRM in Scripture is not fruitful. And remember that the Catholic Church is not Sola Scriptura.
po18guy
Well-known member
OK. Problem with that? Not in the bible, you say? Well, the bible is not in the bible; neither is the sacred table of contents; neither is Christ teaching bible alone, the Apostles teaching bible alone or Paul teaching bible alone.
A German man 1500 years later came up with that idea.
If you want to know a bit more about how Christianity was celebrated since the days of the Apostles, begin reading here:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm#V
A German man 1500 years later came up with that idea.
If you want to know a bit more about how Christianity was celebrated since the days of the Apostles, begin reading here:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm#V
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4Him
Guest
Ok… how does that connect to today’s Catholic Mass…?
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4Him
Guest
Even better, I went to the Roman Canon Law and the Catholic Catechism as shown…
po18guy
Well-known member
One last chance:
If you do not think that the mass is in scripture (anti-biblcal demand), then how about scripture in the mass?
The Didache.
1 Corinthians 10:16 the bread and wine are a partaking, a participation. If you partake or participate, you enter into and it also enters into you.
1 Corinthians 11 Pay attention to verses 27-30. If you unworthily partake of the Body and Blood of the Lord, you are guilty of the Body and Blood and eat and drink damnation unto yourself. Extremely clear.
Please consider reading and reflecting on what you have been presented with in this thread, and humility demands that you question yourself and your beliefs first.
Many of us here believed as you did and saw the error in it.
If you do not think that the mass is in scripture (anti-biblcal demand), then how about scripture in the mass?
The Didache.
1 Corinthians 10:16 the bread and wine are a partaking, a participation. If you partake or participate, you enter into and it also enters into you.
1 Corinthians 11 Pay attention to verses 27-30. If you unworthily partake of the Body and Blood of the Lord, you are guilty of the Body and Blood and eat and drink damnation unto yourself. Extremely clear.
Please consider reading and reflecting on what you have been presented with in this thread, and humility demands that you question yourself and your beliefs first.
Many of us here believed as you did and saw the error in it.
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EndTimes
Guest
Altar… are common in gathering places… At homes - Tables sufficed…
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4Him
Guest
I’m wondering how placing God’s Word inside an event, that doesn’t represent God’s Word (in context)… justifies the event ??
Participating in communion within the body of believers, was, and is a very important practice to our God. You could easily show me my error by definitively showing that the Catholic communion of today is in the Book of Acts, or anywhere in the NT (In context).
Biblically, the purpose of communion is to remember the death of Jesus Christ and the new covenant and to “proclaim” what He did for us, Matthew 26:28; Luke 22:19; Corinthians 11:26.
The Catholic purpose is entirely different:
Council of Trent, 13th Session, Canon I : Catholic Mass is the “ unbloody sacrifice” of Jesus."
From CCC 1367 "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice ~~ “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass
And I’ll let Jesus finish this out… “it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail.”
Participating in communion within the body of believers, was, and is a very important practice to our God. You could easily show me my error by definitively showing that the Catholic communion of today is in the Book of Acts, or anywhere in the NT (In context).
Biblically, the purpose of communion is to remember the death of Jesus Christ and the new covenant and to “proclaim” what He did for us, Matthew 26:28; Luke 22:19; Corinthians 11:26.
The Catholic purpose is entirely different:
- A congregant would have to believe in transubstantiation. Found no where in Acts or NT.
- A congregant would have to believe that missing Mass is a Mortal sin. Found no where in Acts or NT.
- A congregant would have to discount holy scripture… i.e… Heb 9:28 “Jesus will only appear a second time”. Luke 13: 35 - You will not see me again until the day of the Lord." Not everyday in a Mass.
- In Jesus’s own Words: John 6:63-64 “it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life”… And so much more…
Council of Trent, 13th Session, Canon I : Catholic Mass is the “ unbloody sacrifice” of Jesus."
From CCC 1367 "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice ~~ “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass
And I’ll let Jesus finish this out… “it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail.”
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4Him
Guest
Thanks, how do you know it was implied and carried on correctly… given that the Mass, with all of it’s traditions, are no where in the NT…?
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4Him
Guest
How do you know that Catholic Tradition produced the New Testament, given all the Scripture that explained the New Testament was given to us by the Holy Spirit…? i.e…
2 Peter 1:20-21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
po18guy
Well-known member
- The Catholic Church has nothing to prove. It was founded by Christ and, as you will kindly note, is not bible based. The bible is Church-based. You have been taught backwards.
2 .The bible is incomplete and tells . . . you so in many places. If you fail to see that, I cannot help you. - Your continued filibustering here reveals only that you desire to control the conversation. A violation of the rules which you - dear Christian - agreed to obey.
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4Him
Guest
Thanks, can you share the references?
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4Him
Guest
- You have been taught backwards.
2 .The bible is incomplete and tells YOU so in many places. If you fail to see that, I cannot help you. - Your continued filibustering here reveals only that you desire to control the conversation.
Does your reply improve the conversation in some way?
Be kind to your fellow community members.
Constructive criticism is welcome, but criticize ideas, not people.
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Limoncello4021
Guest
Catholicism is based on Scripture AND tradition. The AND is important. For tradition, assuming you’ve studied the Church Fathers, as in Justin Martyr’s account of the Mass in 155 a.d.?
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