What is the origin of the Mass? Is it explained in Scripture?

[EndTimes]

Thanks, how do you know it was implied and carried on correctly… given that the Mass

It’s also very well known and taught as well - from call it - the historical perspective

Jewish Roots of Catholic Mass - from the USCCB

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te.../eucharist/upload/catsun-2011-doc-pitre-roots DOT pdf

insert a . between -roots and pdf - with no spaces

 

[4Him]

Do you see a reference to current Baptist service? Or to Lutheran service? Looking for the text of the current GIRM in Scripture is not fruitful. And remember that the Catholic Church is not Sola Scriptura.

I didn’t see the scriptural reference for the Mass in your answer…

 

[4Him]

Catholicism is based on Scripture AND tradition. The AND is important. For tradition, assuming you’ve studied the Church Fathers, as in Justin Martyr’s account of the Mass in 155 a.d.?

That would be great to see, do you have the source for Justin Martyr’s comment on the Mass?

 

[Justin_Mary]

Re: your scripture references, after reading through all of them, I don’t see any reference to today’s Catholic Mass. Let’s take Acts 2:42-43, they certainly broke bread together, but they don’t treat the bread as though Jesus was inside it…

1st Corinthians 11:29

For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves

 

[sainteriksrose]

Jesus Who is the Word of God made Man, Who existed BEFORE He was born as a Man (John 1)…

Is He through which ALL of creation came about. So if the Creator of ALL said the bread is His Body, then that Bread is His Body.

Christians believe EVERYTHING Jesus said. Even if we don’t always understand. Not, imo, that He is un- understandable.

 

[sainteriksrose]

Agreed…

St. Paul did say, “For as often” which DOES indicate more-than-once. (1 Corinthians 11)

 

[Justin_Mary]

How do you know that Catholic Tradition produced the New Testament, given all the Scripture that explained the New Testament was given to us by the Holy Spirit…? i.e…

What is your understanding of the development of the book we call the Bible? How did it come into being?

 

[VeryBlessed]

I just got finished listening to a teaching CD by Scott Hahn, where he brings out the fact that the liturgy takes much of its form and prayers from the book of revelation. He makes the point that, while revelation is certainly a prophecy of end times, it is primarily a description of a liturgy that happens In heaven. I can’t do justice to the subject like he can, but one of the points he brings out, is that the book of Revelation is divided into two sections, like a liturgy of the word, and a liturgy of the Eucharist.

Here’s the thing about Catholicism. It’s very very deep. On a superficial level it can be easily criticized, but if you really dig into it, you’ll find amazing and beautiful spiritual depth there. There are answers, and compelling ones too, if people are willing to go beyond the superficial talking-point criticisms. I often tell my evangelical friends to look into Catholicism with caution. The answers are there, and they are compelling. That’s why I’m back in the church.

 

[VeryBlessed]

I believe this is the book that further develops the facts Scott brought forth in the CD I heard.

https://www.amazon.com/Lambs-Supper-Mass-Heaven-Earth/dp/0385496591

Good luck in your search for answers.

 

[tonyh12]

This might help

 

[SJstl]

Thanks for the recommendation,

that will be a good supplement to go with Brant Pitre’s book, Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist.

 

[VeryBlessed]

I am glad you mentioned Dr. Pitre’s book. I haven’t read that book although I have heard Dr Pitre speak on this on another CD I’ve listened to. Dr. Hahn relied heavily on Jesus fulfilling the old Passover and transforming it into a new Passover. And of course, to us Catholics, the Eucharist is so profoundly important, in part, because in the OT Jewish Passover, the Passover was not complete until you had eaten the lamb. Dr Hahn brought out the point that Jesus’ bread of life discourse in John 6 was delivered at the time of the Jewish Passover, just one year before when he would give his life for us, again at the Passover. It’s really remarkable, what we’ve been given. We can participate in the Passover sacrifice of Christ, and be fully part of it, by consuming his body and blood at mass. We partake, even 2000 years later.

 

[4Him]

In 1 Corinthians 10:14-22, St Paul discusses the sacrificial meals of Israel and of pagans and discusses the practice of Christians in similar terms. In verse 18, he mentions the people of Israel, who ** made sacrificial offerings of food to God ** at his altar (through the ministry of his priests) and then the people ate of those sacrifices to become partners with God.

Here is the exact language: Vs. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
Vs. 18 - the people of Israel are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar
Vs. 20 - I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God.
Vs. 21 - You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
In context: Eating meat sacrificed to pagan idols disturbed some new Christians… this was addressing idolatry.

At a Catholic Mass, Jesus Christ is similarly offered in sacrifice alive and unharmed.

Here’s Heb 10: 12 - “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God”. Not daily sacrifices…

The author of Hebrews (Hebrews 13:10), speaks of Christians having “an altar.”

Hebrews was written roughly around 65AD. The temple and it’s alter were destroyed in 70AD. As Jesus predicted that both would go away. Heb 13 warns against heresy’s and explains they should aim for grace, not food: Heb 13:10 - Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them. We have an altar from which those who serve the tent, have no right to eat.

Paul share’s God’s intent for sacrifices, following the temple’s destruction: Paul shares in Rom 12:1 “I appeal to you therefore, brothers by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice”

Christians have seen the Eucharist as the ubiquitous sacrifice (“a pure offering”) prophesied in Malachi 1:11

Malachi 1:11 - Malachi’s “Pure offering” was the one time sacrifice of Jesus.
And Justin’s dialogue supports scripture quite well… thanks for sharing…!

 

[4Him]

What is your understanding of the development of the book we call the Bible? How did it come into being?

I always let Peter answer that: 2 Peter 1:20-21 “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Limoncello4021]

Please just google it (“Justin Martyr on the Eucharist/Mass”). It is well known to many Catholics and again part of the rich tradition of the Church Fathers. You will find it online. If you’d like to learn about the tradition we build upon, make sure to read them.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Not daily sacrifices …

You’ll never see where we are coming from until you understand we don’t believe in daily sacrifice. The sacrifice of the Mass is the same sacrifice of Cavalry. Not being done again & again, but more akin to the multiplication of the loves.

Jesus gave thanks once. He blessed the fish & the bread once. Same as His one sacrifice. He did it once.

What you see at the Mass is more like the disciples reaching into the basket again & again until everyone had their fill.

We don’t nail Jesus to the cross daily. We do not crown him with thorns daily. We do not raise his body on the cross daily. We do not pierce his side daily. He did that, once.

We, by the grace of God partake of that sacrifice daily, like the Hebrews in the desert receiving bread from heaven daily.

 

[Justin_Mary]

We have an altar from which those who serve the tent, have no right to eat .

You understand Paul, one of the first Cristians, is saying here, we have an altar?

& those who serve the tent, those who have placed serving the temple above serving God, cannot eat of this altar, inferring there are those who can & do wat from the altar he just said they had?

 

[Todd_Easton]

I think they were referring to Justin Martyr’s First Apology, chapters 65-67. Chapter 65 appears to be a continuation of his narrative of a Christian baptism in chapter 61.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I always let Peter answer that: 2 Peter 1:20-21 “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. ”

Ok, let’s go with that. The prophets inspired by the Holy Spirit preached God’s word throughout Judaea, Israel, etc… other men inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote these words on paper, preserved those words, interpreted those words, taught those words. We call that the Jewish tradition. So technically the Jewish tradition was inspired by the Holy Spirit & produced the Old Testament.

Similarly, the New Testament was produced by inspired men through the Catholic tradition.

The Bible was originally compiled, not for individual reading & interpretation, but for use in the Liturgy. The same primary purpose it is used for today in the Catholic Church.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Malachi 1:11 - Malachi’s “Pure offering” was the one time sacrifice of Jesus.
And Justin’s dialogue supports scripture quite well… thanks for sharing…!

From Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, chapter 41, where he understands the Eucharist as the acceptable sacrifices that fulfill the prophecy of Malachi 1:11, bold emphasis and commentary in bold brackets mine:

Hence God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you [ Jews ]: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure offering: for My name is great among the Gentiles, says the Lord: but you profane it.’ Malachi 1:10-12 [So] He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [ Christians ], who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, i.e., the bread of the Eucharist, and also the cup of the Eucharist, affirming both that we [ Christians ] glorify His name, and that you [ Jews ] profane [it].

For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. (Malachi 1:11)

Christ’s death on the cross was indeed “a pure offering” but it was offered in only one place, on Mount Calvary just outside the walls of Jerusalem. This cannot be the pure offering prophesied in Malachi 1:11 because Malachi’s offering is offered “in every place,” unless Christ’s death on the cross is somehow made substantially-present again in every place and offered again in every place, such as in the Eucharist.