What is the origin of the Mass? Is it explained in Scripture?

[whatistrue]

If you show your question here, I’ll be sure to answer it…
And are you making an assumption on my motive…?

I did and you didn’t, so…

And as I stated I was speaking of the message your actions sent. I am done here.

 

[EndTimes]

Did the Hebrews believe that the substance of God was in the bread they ate? And if they missed a Sabbath, did they commit a mortal sin and lose their salvation…? Did they pray to anyone other than God in the service…?

Decent questions…

And placing the deeper Understandings of “Mortal Sin” on the side burner for a sec…

Is the bread Jesus? Or is Jesus The Bread?

 

[4Him]

I came across this last night, & thought of you.

Peace be with you.

That was a very good read. I especially enjoyed his thoughts on “continually communing with God”
Thanks for sharing…!

 

[4Him]

Your “notes” come verbatim from an article on an anti-Catholic website whose link I cannot even reference here per forum guidelines. Some of your responses have been moved around but your second and last paragraphs are a word for word lift. Even if you can’t link the article at least have the honesty to reference the organization where your notes are coming from.

I have hundreds of Christian references in my notes. My only criteria is that they align with God’s Word.

That specific author is only one of many Christian commentators that I fully agreed with. From the last quote of Justin’s that I pasted, it’s sums up his stance on sacrifices and what he means by them:
“Now, that prayers and giving of thanks, when offered by worthy men, are the only perfect and well-pleasing sacrifices to God, I also admit.”

 

[4Him]

The Catholic Church does not teach that the Mass is a re-crucifixion of Christ, who does not suffer and die again in the Mass.

Thanks for sharing… and I fully agree…!
My question, is the communion host the actual “substance” of Jesus?
Also wondering where in the NT did the apostles explain that missing Mass was a mortal sin?

 

[4Him]

Decent questions…

And placing the deeper Understandings of “Mortal Sin” on the side burner for a sec…

Is the bread Jesus? Or is Jesus The Bread?

Yep, that’s my question. From scripture I found: John 6:63-64 “it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life”

 

[4Him]

So you are calling Jesus a liar. When you say that nobody ate Jesus that means that when HE pronounced HIS, this words, (The WORD of GOD),

Nope, Jesus only speaks truth. Not sure how you jumped to that conclusion.

Matthew 26:26 Now while they were eating the meal, Jesus took bread, and he blessed and broke and gave it to his disciples, and he said: “Take and eat. This is my body.”
26:27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks. And he gave it to them, saying: “Drink from this, all of you.
26:28) For this is my blood of the new covenant , which shall be shed for many as a remission of sins.
So HE lied, HE is not GOD who CAN say those words AND EFFECT the change, the miraculous event that change the destiny of human kind.

Read in context, we know that Jesus would not have suggested violating Rabbinic and Levitical laws. He was also standing right there, and no one took a bite. And we see a couple passage following, John 6:63-64 - “it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life”… Let me know if you need more references.

Thanks for your Scott Hanh suggestion.

 

[4Him]

The Catholic Church does not teach that the atonement or forgiveness of the eternal consequences of mortal sins can be obtained through the sacrament of the Eucharist; instead, it teaches that the forgiveness of the eternal consequences of mortal sins can be obtained through the sacraments of Baptism and Confession.

Thanks for your thoughts on Justin. Regarding your comment above, Jesus asked us to go directly to God for forgiveness. I reference Matthew 6:12 - "And forgive us our sins, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

 

[Todd_Easton]

This is a little off the topic of the Mass but, yes, Jesus instructed us to pray directly to God for the forgiveness of our sins but he doesn’t say that that is the only way to obtain forgiveness of our sins from God. Elsewhere in Scripture, we are encourage to obtain forgiveness of our sins from God through his sacraments. Peter said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” (Acts 2:38) Likewise, Ananias said, " Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins." (Acts 22:16) In John 20:22-23, Jesus gave his apostles the authority to forgiven sins in his name (John 20:22-23) and James encouraged us obtain the forgiveness of our sins through this ministry of the elders of the church:

Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (James 5:14-15)

 

[MtnDwellar]

The Eucharist is indeed substantially the body of Jesus. In the bread of life discourse at Capernaum, Christ told us to eat His flesh. When, at the last supper, He said this is My Body, the apostles knew exactly what He meant.

The Sunday obligation is part of a discipline. It is not scriptural. The Church instituted the obligation as a means to keep holy the Lord’s day and also meet the minimum demands of justice.

I"m sure you know Catholics are not Sola Scriptural. Catholic teachings come from our deposit of faith which includes; God’s word as found in Scripture, sacred tradition, and the teaching of the magisterium.

 

[JerryZ]

Read in context, we know that Jesus would not have suggested violating Rabbinic and Levitical laws. He was also standing right there, and no one took a bite. And we see a couple passage following, John 6:63-64 - “it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail . The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life”… Let me know if you need more references.

I am sorry but you seem not to get who Jesus is. HE is GOD if HE says “here eat this bread. This is my body which will be given up for you”. It does not matter that HE was right there at the same time. HE is GOD and what HE says it is. Notwhitanding what our senses tell us. Now if you can prove that HE is NOT GOD then maybe one can start denying the true presence dogma.
As for John 6 Jesus repeated the statement 7 times, count them 7 times HE repeated the same. In fact in the original Greek HE went more and more graphic on the language at first was “eat” later HE changed to “gnaw”. His followers were so taken aback that almost all left HIM. Who then turned to the 12 and asked them. Well aren’t you leaving too? To which Peter replied “where shall we go?”.
Which proves that they did not understand this teaching then. But at the last supper they were finally given the manna from Heaven.
As for more references it is the constant teaching since the Apostles when their eyes were opened at Pentecost that indeed Jesus is truly present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist. For 2000+ years it is the teaching of the Church founded by Jesus Himself. Thanks!
Peace!

 

[sainteriksrose]

Our flesh depended on His Flesh dying and opening Heaven again for His sheep.

 

[hope]

The origin of Mass is Jesus. I am going to give a quick overview.
The first place to start in scripture is the Old Testament. Moses lead the people out of enslavement. They were to put the blood of lamb on the door so that the Angel would Passover them and would not kill the first born. Jesus said He came to fulfill. One of the fulfillment s is the Passover.This event was a foreshadowing of the Eucharist. It was the Last Supper, which was the Passover, where Jesus established the memorial of His death that He ordered for us to follow. This was to fulfill the Passover as Jesus said. Jesus had told the Apostles that He was going to give His Body and Blood to eat, see John 6.
You say that the Mass is not in Scripture. You do not really explain what you mean by the Mass. What was done at the Last Supper is what is the first Mass. Where you get that there is different answers, I don’t know. Maybe hardness of heart? I have a suspicion that you have no idea what a Mass is. I am not going to site chapter and verse but if you are familiar at all with Scripture than you know that it was common to read Scripture. Just like we do at Mass. You are being very snarky. I wonder what your purpose is to posting.

 

[hope]

John 20:23
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

23
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
Mathew 5:24
24
leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
I don’t see anywhere that you are to go directly to God for forgiveness including the Lord’s prayer which ask that we be forgiven like we forgive other. If we were only to go to God, Jesus would not have told the Apostle’s that they have the power to forgive.

 

[4Him]

This is a little off the topic of the Mass but, yes, Jesus instructed us to pray directly to God for the forgiveness of our sins but he doesn’t say that that is the only way to obtain forgiveness of our sins from God.

You’re right, this is a little off topic, so I’ll try to be brief. And I agree, when we sin, we’re advised to repent and seek forgiveness, both, directly to God, as well as horizontally to those we’ve offended… all seemingly summed up in the Our Father…

 

[4Him]

The Eucharist is indeed substantially the body of Jesus. In the bread of life discourse at Capernaum, Christ told us to eat His flesh. When, at the last supper, He said this is My Body, the apostles knew exactly what He meant.

So, given Jesus’s statement in John 6:63-64 “it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life”… how do you know His words were literal.
Additionally, Jesus and the Apostles knew they’d be violating Rabbinic and Levitical laws.
Then comparing this to other figurative language Jesus used… would he also be an actual “Vine”, is Israel really “lost sheep”, are false prophets actual “ferocious wolves”…? Should we take those literal…?

The Sunday obligation is part of a discipline. It is not scriptural. The Church instituted the obligation as a means to keep holy the Lord’s day and also meet the minimum demands of justice.

If the Sunday obligation is not in Scripture, who’s “minimum demands of Justice” are you referring…?

 

[EndTimes]

Yep, that’s my question. From scripture I found: John 6:63-64 “it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life”

And… Jesus said: I - Jesus - am The Bread of Life … ?

 

[hope]

how do you know His words were literal.

Because Jesus said so and because those who heard him walked away from Him.

John 6

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

Jesus didn’t say wait I didn’t mean it literally. Nope! He doubled down

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Note the Amen which at the beginning of a discourse means - surely, truly, of a truth. What Jesus is declaring that this is truth not symbolic

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

What was the reaction of His disciples?

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

It is no different today. There are those who cannot believe and walk away.

 

[Limoncello4021]

“My flesh is true food…whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”

Obviously, the flesh is important.

 

[EndTimes]

Obviously, the flesh is important.

And for surely - at the least - Yes on His actual flesh which bled actual blood -
aka - His Actual Atonement Sacrifice on the Cross…

All who allow Jesus on the level of Spirit into Minds —> Hearts / Souls …
Have Jesus Himself as our Common Ground Communal Leaven. ?