What is the point of God's justice if all our sins are forgiven?

[fhansen]

You don’t need to suspend justice in order to provide room for a sinner to rehabilitate since the final judgement starts upon death.

Forgiveness and our ensuing choices and actions-the basis of our judgment- starts in this life. God judges by the heart-which He knows way better than we do. And He* judges***-merit or demerit based on what we do with what we were given-the first gift, after faith, itself, being forgiveness, pardon for sin. Looked at in the big picture, we’re all sinners in need of His mercy and help. He only asks that we turn to Him *for *it. Do you object to efforts to reform criminals?

 

[Vico]

To me that story is not a good example for justice.

See
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13819340&postcount=118

 

[Bahman]

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus Christ says: he has come to fulfill the law and that “man’s enemies shall be they of his own household” when they are “not worthy of me”,

Matthew 5:17-19

17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 10
28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear not therefore: better are you than many sparrows.
32 Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven.
33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.
34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.
35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.
40 He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.

I don’t understand how these quotes are related to our discussion.

 

[Bahman]

God’s justice and his mercy are not opposed.
They only seem opposed in that we want to avoid justice when it is uncomfortable for us.

It is evident that there is a tension between mercy and justice. What is left to judge if you forgive it?

 

[Bahman]

You make the mistake assumption that God is about you (or us as individuals) receiving something from him.
God desires the unity of all people and looks for the good of all people, in his mercy and his justice.
The fact that God forgives does not mean he is not just.
Where is the logic?

I didn’t say that God is not just or forgivefull. I just said there is a conflict between forgiveness and justice.

 

[Bahman]

Forgiveness and our ensuing choices and actions-the basis of our judgment- starts in this life. God judges by the heart-which He knows way better than we do. And He* judges***-merit or demerit based on what we do with what we were given-the first gift, after faith, itself, being forgiveness, pardon for sin. Looked at in the big picture, we’re all sinners in need of His mercy and help. He only asks that we turn to Him *for *it. Do you object to efforts to reform criminals?

I don’t understand what is your point. My point is very simple: What God has for judging if it is already forgiven? Can we please focus on this problem?

 

[Vico]

I don’t understand how these quotes are related to our discussion.

You commented about the story of the field workers, which showed justice in lawfulness, and you think is not a good story for that topic. Here in the Gospel shows that justice is fulfillment of the law.

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus Christ says: he has come to fulfill the law (which is justice) and that “man’s enemies shall be they of his own household” when they are “not worthy of me”,

 

[clem456]

I didn’t say that God is not just or forgivefull. I just said there is a conflict between forgiveness and justice.

There is no conflict. God is just and merciful. The two are not at odds.

 

[fhansen]

I don’t understand what is your point. My point is very simple: What God has for judging if it is already forgiven? Can we please focus on this problem?

There’s a condition on the forgiveness: we must change-or else we’re still judged to be ungrateful, wicked, and lazy servants-and cast from the kingdom. Read the Parable of the Talents. Grace is not a get-out-of-hell-free-card. We must do our part. Justice is simply postponed until all the wheat is gathered in. Justice is postponed until we become just ourselves,* if we will*. That’s the end-goal of forgiveness.

 

[clem456]

There’s a condition on the forgiveness: we must change-or else we’re still judged to be ungrateful, wicked, and lazy servants-and cast from the kingdom. Read the Parable of the Talents. Grace is not a get-out-of-hell-free-card. We must do our part. Justice is simply postponed until all the wheat is gathered in. Justice is postponed until we become just ourselves,* if we will*. That’s the end-goal of forgiveness.

If there can be said to be a condition on forgiveness, it is that we consent to God’s constant offer of it. His offer is accomplished through Christ’ death and resurrection. “It is finished” already. Nothing more is needed on God’s part for us to have life. Our repentance does not effect his forgiveness, his love and forgiveness provides the grace for our repentance. It’s in his nature to sacrifice for us, to forgive.
We must accept it, cooperate with it, pass it on. In other words, live it.

If we do not experience it, it is not because God is not forgiving. It is because we prefer something inferior, like our own obstinacy.

Because God loves us in such a complete manner, he respects our free will. It would be an act of injustice to violate free will. In God’s justice he honors our choices. If we choose something other than God (hell), he honors that choice.

Justice is bound up with love and mercy.

 

[fhansen]

If there can be said to be a condition on forgiveness, it is that we consent to God’s constant offer of it. His offer is accomplished through Christ’ death and resurrection. “It is finished” already. Nothing more is needed on God’s part for us to have life. Our repentance does not effect his forgiveness, his love and forgiveness provides the grace for our repentance. It’s in his nature to sacrifice for us, to forgive.
We must accept it, cooperate with it, pass it on. In other words, live it.

If we do not experience it, it is not because God is not forgiving. It is because we prefer something inferior, like our own obstinacy.

Because God loves us in such a complete manner, he respects our free will. It would be an act of injustice to violate free will. In God’s justice he honors our choices. If we choose something other than God (hell), he honors that choice.

Justice is bound up with love and mercy.

The point is that our wills and actions are involved; we can resist and reject grace. As we accept God’s offer of forgiveness we are already willing rightly. As we continue on the path of following Him, we grow in justice. This is expected after baptism. The offer is a package-and it effects nothing if not accepted and acted upon. God’s love and mercy are unconditional; we set the conditions by our response, otherwise salvation would be universal. Yes, God’s justice is based on His love but Bahman’s question is reasonable I think. He seems to just be asking if forgiveness is just, since justice might otherwise demand condemnation. Forgiveness is a free, unmerited gift. My point is that Justice isn’t ignored, it’s simply witheld, for a time, due to His patience and love.

 

[clem456]

The point is that our wills and actions are involved; we can resist and reject grace. As we accept God’s offer of forgiveness we are already willing rightly. As we continue on the path of following Him, we grow in justice. This is expected after baptism. The offer is a package-and it effects nothing if not accepted and acted upon. God’s love and mercy are unconditional; we set the conditions by our response, otherwise salvation would be universal. Yes, God’s justice is based on His love but Bahman’s question is reasonable I think. He seems to just be asking if forgiveness is just, since justice might otherwise demand condemnation. Forgiveness is a free, unmerited gift.

In Christianity it would be a non-starter to ask if forgiveness is just.
All virtues are sourced in God. God cannot act unjustly.
Since he is the source and ultimate type of justice, if his love conditions it as he wills, that is the nature of it.

The worst forgiven sinner has been treated justly by God, because it is God’s will that he experience mercy .

 

[fhansen]

In Christianity it would be a non-starter to ask if forgiveness is just.
All virtues are sourced in God. God cannot act unjustly.
Since he is the source and ultimate type of justice, if his love conditions it as he wills, that is the nature of it.

The worst forgiven sinner has been treated justly by God, because it is God’s will that he experience mercy .

But aren’t the wages of sin death? And is *that *unjust? Or is ‘an eye for an eye’ unjust?
**“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” **Rom 6:23
This gift is still connected to the requirement that we no longer be “slaves to sin, which leads to death”, but “to obedience, which leads to righteousness”. Rom 6:16

So while mercy is never unjust, we can’t say that the forgiveness is just in terms of being equitable, as if we deserve it-only in terms of its being merciful.
"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification." Rom 5:15-16

 

[Bahman]

You commented about the story of the field workers, which showed justice in lawfulness, and you think is not a good story for that topic. Here in the Gospel shows that justice is fulfillment of the law.

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus Christ says: he has come to fulfill the law (which is justice) and that “man’s enemies shall be they of his own household” when they are “not worthy of me”,

Do you really think that the story was just?

 

[Bahman]

There is no conflict. God is just and merciful. The two are not at odds.

How you can be just if you forgive?

 

[Bahman]

There’s a condition on the forgiveness: we must change-or else we’re still judged to be ungrateful, wicked, and lazy servants-and cast from the kingdom. Read the Parable of the Talents. Grace is not a get-out-of-hell-free-card. We must do our part. Justice is simply postponed until all the wheat is gathered in. Justice is postponed until we become just ourselves,* if we will*. That’s the end-goal of forgiveness.

I understand that there are condition on forgiveness. The problem is that there is no room for justice once a sin is forgiven.

 

[Vico]

Do you really think that the story was just?

Yes. Some received more for less work, and some received less for more work, and the master paid the workers what was agreed on which was lawful.

Gifts may be made without being unlawful, without being unjust.

 

[Bahman]

Yes. Some received more for less work, and some received less for more work, and the master paid the workers what was agreed on which was lawful.

To me the master is unjust.

Gifts may be made without being unlawful, without being unjust.

Gift has no place in our discussion. We are talking about justice and forgiveness.

 

[Vico]

To me the master is unjust.

Gift has no place in our discussion. We are talking about justice and forgiveness.

Gift is in our discussion because what is received beyond what was agreed is a gift and should be removed from consideration. You do not remove the gift before deciding on what is fair. Notice the reply:

“13 But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny?”

 

[Bahman]

Gift is in our discussion because what is received beyond what was agreed is a gift and should be removed from consideration. You do not remove the gift before deciding on what is fair. Notice the reply:

“13 But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny?”

One should deserve what s/he receive as a gift which means that the giver should be just.