D
davidv
Guest
Why must this be so? Where does patience fit in this picture?
Sounds like you are describing a justice different than God’s justice.
- Status
Sounds like you are describing a justice different than God’s justice.
F
fhansen
Guest
But there are still conditions to the pardon. We must live uprightly, following Jesus. We must sin no more; no sinners enter heaven. We must be merciful ourselves just as we have received mercy; we must feed the poor, clothe the naked, set captives free. Etc.
V
Vico
Guest
In ethics, justice is “the principle of fairness that like cases should be treated alike” (Collins Dictionary). However, it also means lawful. The Gospel of Matthew has:
Matthew 20:1-16
1 The kingdom of heaven is like to an householder, who went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And having agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And going out about the third hour, he saw others standing in the market place idle.
4 And he said to them: Go you also into my vineyard, and I will give you what shall be just.
5 And they went their way. And again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did in like manner.
6 But about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing, and he saith to them: Why stand you here all the day idle?
7 They say to him: Because no man hath hired us. He saith to them: Go you also into my vineyard.
8 And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first.
9 When therefore they were come, that came about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first also came, they thought that they should receive more: and they also received every man a penny.
11 And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house,
12 Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats.
13 But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny?
14 Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee.
15 Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?
16 So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.
B
Bahman
Guest
That I already got it. I am still holding my position: Eternal punishment dose not make any sense since any sin has limited effect.Forgiveness has to do with punishment. (Catechism below
The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83
Modern Catholic Dictionary, Forgiveness
Pardon or remission of an offense. The Catholic Church believes that sins forgiven are actually removed from the soul (John 20) and not merely covered over by the merits of Christ. Only God can forgive sins, since he alone can restore sanctifying grace to a person who has sinned gravely and thereby lost the state of grace. God forgives sins to the truly repentant either immediately through an act of perfect contrition or mediately through a sacrament. The sacraments primarily directed to the forgiveness of sins are baptism and penance, and secondarily, under certain conditions, also the sacrament of anointing.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil " 523
B
Bahman
Guest
Because people are responsible for their action.
Patience has nothing to do here.
How God could be just if he simply forgive our sins?
B
Bahman
Guest
Why there should be condition on pardon? That is not called forgiveness anymore.
B
Bahman
Guest
How this story is related to our discussion?
F
fhansen
Guest
Because of justice. By accepting Gods forgiveness and turning from sin, we acknowledge that He is God, that He has the right to our obedience, that we’re obligated to be subjugated to Him and His perfect Wisdom for justice’s sake. The gospel isn’t about forgiveness only; its about change, about restoration of justice to God’s creation, the *perfecting *of it, actually, which He works patiently to accomplish.
V
Vico
Guest
It is an example of justice.
D
davidv
Guest
So? Why does this require immediate justice?
Why?
Frankly, based on this exchange, you have demonstrated a total absence of understanding of anything that the Church teaches about God’s mercy and justice.
God is, at once, both perfectly merciful and perfectly just.
D
davidv
Guest
That is the way it is. That is the way God designed this world and how we are to relate to Him.
Not so.
B
Bahman
Guest
To me that story is not a good example for justice.
B
Bahman
Guest
Because we owe people and God when we sin. We have to take responsibility of our act and pay people back.
You tell me how patience is related to this topic?
I think I know enough.
This doesn’t make sense at all. There is a tension between being merciful and just.
B
Bahman
Guest
Do we have any right in this things that you call relationship? Actually I didn’t come to this world by my own decision. Now I am told that I have to align all my activities to please God.
B
Bahman
Guest
You cannot have justice and mercy on the same plate!
F
fhansen
Guest
You can mercifully suspend justice -for a time-knowing that a person may enter into a just state themselves, may choose and grow in it, especially as they’re helped along the way. It’s all about man’s will and its reformation-or even its formation. I think you’re protesting too much- over nothing as far as I can tell. In the end the wheat is separated from the tares; good and evil are no longer allowed to coexist.
B
Bahman
Guest
You don’t need to suspend justice in order to provide room for a sinner to rehabilitate since the final judgement starts upon death.
V
Vico
Guest
In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus Christ says: he has come to fulfill the law and that “man’s enemies shall be they of his own household” when they are “not worthy of me”,
Matthew 5:17-19
17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 10
28 And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear not therefore: better are you than many sparrows.
32 Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven.
33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.
34 Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.
35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.
40 He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.
C
clem456
Guest
God’s justice and his mercy are not opposed.
They only seem opposed in that we want to avoid justice when it is uncomfortable for us.
They only seem opposed in that we want to avoid justice when it is uncomfortable for us.
C
clem456
Guest
You make the mistake assumption that God is about you (or us as individuals) receiving something from him.
God desires the unity of all people and looks for the good of all people, in his mercy and his justice.
The fact that God forgives does not mean he is not just.
Where is the logic?
- Status