V
Vico
Guest
Sin has eternal effect.
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C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
Yes you are.
F
fhansen
Guest
The original sin was to willfully turn away from God. Subsequent choices/actions/sins of humankind either support and confirm that separated state or resolve/amend it. Eternal punishment is to be eternally separated from God.
U
Usagi
Guest
Now wait just a dang minute.
If we say God forgives completely, you say that is not just.
If we say that God forgives and restores us to Him, but still exacts temporal punishment for our good, you say that is not real forgiveness.
What kind of response by God would satisfy you?
B
Bahman
Guest
How our sins can have eternal effect when our life is bounded?
B
Bahman
Guest
That is not just. Any sin has limited effect and require limited punishment.
B
Bahman
Guest
Each sin requires a limited punishment. Of course forgiveness and justice are working against each other.
F
fhansen
Guest
It’s not about personal sins per se-those are only the external evidence of an internal state of being. That state of being, of willfully remaining in injustice, is the state of sin. At some point it becomes a permanent choice.
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance"
It’s about the will-always has been. God’s forgiveness and His justice are meted out in accordance with our right-or wrong-choices.
V
Vico
Guest
We have eternal life. After our bodily death, there comes the resurrection of the body, which lives forever. The soul exists even without the body and lives forever. Those that died in the friendship of God, receive glorified bodies when resurrected and experience the beatific vision. Those that did not, receive un-glorified bodies when resurrected and do not experience the beatific vision.
C
CHRISTINE77
Guest
It’s obvious to me that Bahman cannot see beyond earthly justice nor materialism. Therefore arguing with him is useless. I am not going to visit any more of his ridiculous threads. Talking to him is like talking to a brick wall!
B
Bahman
Guest
There is a tension between forgiveness and justice. You will understand what do I mean when you realize this tension.
B
Bahman
Guest
I don’t understand how this could be related to our discussion. I was mainly arguing that our sin has limited effect and we should endure limited.
B
Bahman
Guest
Thank you.
V
Vico
Guest
When we commit a sin it has two effects, eternal and temporal. Only the temporal effects could be considered to be limited. There is eternal effect because by our will we turn away from the friendship of God in every serious sin and we cannot change our will of turning away after death, it must be before death.
F
fhansen
Guest
You’re right-I don’t understand. A sort of carte blanc reprieve is given for those who wish to accept God’s offer of forgiveness-to turn away from injustice and embrace and pursue justice instead. Why is this difficult to understand? We’re to choose life over death, good over evil; this is what God covets in us-and this is what He even works, with grace, to help us achieve.
U
Usagi
Guest
“Justice” does not have to mean exact tit-for-tat retribution. It can also mean the restoration of a broken relationship (between individuals, between offender and society, or between sinner and God). Repentance met with forgiveness can accomplish that restoration.
B
Bahman
Guest
Eternal punishment is just nonsense especially if the forgiveness is subjected to confession before death.
B
Bahman
Guest
There is no room for justice if God forgive our sins and there is nothing left for forgiveness if God treats a sin justly.
B
Bahman
Guest
Justice has to be sharp. This leaves no room for forgiveness.
V
Vico
Guest
Forgiveness has to do with punishment. (Catechism below
The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83
Modern Catholic Dictionary, Forgiveness
Pardon or remission of an offense. The Catholic Church believes that sins forgiven are actually removed from the soul (John 20) and not merely covered over by the merits of Christ. Only God can forgive sins, since he alone can restore sanctifying grace to a person who has sinned gravely and thereby lost the state of grace. God forgives sins to the truly repentant either immediately through an act of perfect contrition or mediately through a sacrament. The sacraments primarily directed to the forgiveness of sins are baptism and penance, and secondarily, under certain conditions, also the sacrament of anointing.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
978 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil " 523
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