What is the point of God's justice if all our sins are forgiven?

[Bahman]

They both miss the mark-any degree of sin is an anomaly in God’s creation, not meant to be. None of us were created to sin. We’re being guided by a merciful God back to full justice, from wherever we start. His mercy is necessary either way and if some people require more, some less, that’s not our concern-we can all receive it. In any case we must still respond to His overtures-we can reject God’s mercy.

You didn’t answer my question.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

That is a story? How could you justify this?

The father loves both sons equally. The bad son repents and is welcomed home with a feast and open arms. The good son thinks this is not just - (like you). However the father wants to have both sons with him no matter what they have done, as God wants all his people in heaven with him. His justice* includes *mercy. “The quality of mercy is not strained, it droppeth like the gentle rain from heaven…” Shakespeare - Merchant of Venice.

 

[HelenRose]

You don’t need to be God for sake of argument.

I can’t figure out what it is you want me to say. What do you want God to do to make sense of this in your mind? Where do you see yourself in this debate. Are you the elder brother or the younger brother or the father in the story of the Prodigal Son? Do you think that the father was unjust in forgiving the younger son?

Looking at my own life, I can see how all three part have been part of me.

I see in my younger son, whose early life was more like the younger son in the story, take a turn as he has matured. He has become more like the elder son. I see that he finds it difficult for him to understand my love for his wayward sister.

Since I love both dearly and I know the actions of my children, I relate to the father’s mercy.

Since I know my own lukewarm and lazy nature, I understand why others whose actual serious sins have to be much easier to forgive.

 

[HelenRose]

You don’t need to be God for sake of argument.

I don’t argue for the sake of arguing. I would like to know what you are searching for. If you are arguing just for the sake of argument, I will bow out of this discussion because it will go nowhere except create a tighter and tighter little circle.

 

[MT1926]

What if your children cannot possibly clean the mess they created?

Then I will help by teaching him how to clean the mess. I will also help him actually clean the mess, but I will not clean it for him. Forgiving your children and never giving them justice can teach them that they are entitled to whatever they want and does not teach boundaries.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes they are forgiven considering the fact that the sinner sincerely confess.
All do not repent…not all turn away from sin and to God…

Just only Christian. Jesus has already died for it. I don’t know why God’s mercy shines only for Christian!?

Who says It shines for only the Christian? No the Church. Yes it is in Jesus alone that there is salvation…but some through no fault of their own do not hear the Gospel …Jesus can in ways known to him can give him grace…men still reject it perhaps often --instead choose to remain in evil…

Your church.

No it does not. For not all are necessarily forgiven. Some can choose hell. A person who refuse to repent - and who choose hell …is forgiven…so “all sins are not forgiven as you supposed”

No. This doesn’t happen if you are a rational believer. You are doomed if you are an non-believer.

The later part is not what we believe. Some can yes still be saved…by Jesus in ways known to him. In any case - your premise is faulty for “all sins are not forgiven” so the thread is at an end.

 

[Wesrock]

Anyway, our sins, no matter how many they are, are forgiven if we remain in the state of justice. This is against divine justice.

Purgatory/temporal punishment resolve this point, too.

 

[Bahman]

The father loves both sons equally. The bad son repents and is welcomed home with a feast and open arms. The good son thinks this is not just - (like you). However the father wants to have both sons with him no matter what they have done, as God wants all his people in heaven with him. His justice* includes *mercy. “The quality of mercy is not strained, it droppeth like the gentle rain from heaven…” Shakespeare - Merchant of Venice.

There is no justice if God take all people to heaven and simply forgive all our sins. I think that is obvious.

 

[Bahman]

I can’t figure out what it is you want me to say. What do you want God to do to make sense of this in your mind? Where do you see yourself in this debate. Are you the elder brother or the younger brother or the father in the story of the Prodigal Son? Do you think that the father was unjust in forgiving the younger son?

Looking at my own life, I can see how all three part have been part of me.

I see in my younger son, whose early life was more like the younger son in the story, take a turn as he has matured. He has become more like the elder son. I see that he finds it difficult for him to understand my love for his wayward sister.

Since I love both dearly and I know the actions of my children, I relate to the father’s mercy.

Since I know my own lukewarm and lazy nature, I understand why others whose actual serious sins have to be much easier to forgive.

I have problem with forgiving unconditionally. I think people with sins have a dept which they should pay.

 

[Bahman]

I don’t argue for the sake of arguing. I would like to know what you are searching for. If you are arguing just for the sake of argument, I will bow out of this discussion because it will go nowhere except create a tighter and tighter little circle.

I am searching for truth.

 

[Bahman]

Then I will help by teaching him how to clean the mess. I will also help him actually clean the mess, but I will not clean it for him. Forgiving your children and never giving them justice can teach them that they are entitled to whatever they want and does not teach boundaries.

That is a good approach which means that forgiving is not forgetting the dept that a sinner owe.

 

[Bahman]

All do not repent…not all turn away from sin and to God…

That is not possible. You do go for confession if you don’t repent.

Who says It shines for only the Christian? No the Church. Yes it is in Jesus alone that there is salvation…but some through no fault of their own do not hear the Gospel …Jesus can in ways known to him can give him grace…men still reject it perhaps often --instead choose to remain in evil…

Jesus said that “you are either with him or against him”.

No it does not. For not all are necessarily forgiven. Some can choose hell. A person who refuse to repent - and who choose hell …is forgiven…so “all sins are not forgiven as you supposed”

All your sins forgiven if you repent.

The later part is not what we believe. Some can yes still be saved…by Jesus in ways known to him. In any case - your premise is faulty for “all sins are not forgiven” so the thread is at an end.

Non-believer are doomed since Jesus said that “you are either with him or against him”.

 

[Bahman]

Purgatory/temporal punishment resolve this point, too.

So your sins are not completely forgiven!?

 

[MT1926]

That is a good approach which means that forgiving is not forgetting the dept that a sinner owe.

I am confused.

What kind of a response is this?

It is a good explanation of justice or not?

A good approach makes it sound like I am missing the mark. Well if I am give me a reason why.

If you aren’t going to start entering into a constructive dialogue, instead of constant rehash of your opinions after every reply I am going to start posting on all of your threads as Deacon Jeff did on this one.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

There is no justice if God take all people to heaven and simply forgive all our sins. I think that is obvious.

People who don’t feel the slightest remorse for their sins will NOT be forgiven.

**Everybody **sins. If we feel remorse for our sins and try to atone for them, God will forgive us. That is what divine justice is: forgiveness of sins of the repentant.

No repentance - no forgiveness. It’s that simple. Unrepentant people don’t long for forgiveness. So none wanted, none given. Perfect justice.

 

[Bahman]

I am confused.

Why you are confused? I agreed with your point.

What kind of a response is this?

You mentioned that you are not going to clean the mess and help your children to clean the mess. I mentioned that that is a good approach. You are going to forgive them, by not punishing them but don’t forget the fact that they produce the mess so they are responsible for cleaning the mess.

It is a good explanation of justice or not?

Your approach is a good approach.

 

[Bahman]

People who don’t feel the slightest remorse for their sins will NOT be forgiven.

A true believer remorse but remorsing alone is not enough because any sin has an effect and we are responsible for the effects.

**Everybody **sins. If we feel remorse for our sins and try to atone for them, God will forgive us. That is what divine justice is: forgiveness of sins of the repentant.

Just remorse is not enough.

No repentance - no forgiveness. It’s that simple. Unrepentant people don’t long for forgiveness. So none wanted, none given. Perfect justice.

Just repentance is not enough because any sin has an effect on you or others.

 

[Vico]

A true believer remorse but remorsing alone is not enough because any sin has an effect and we are responsible for the effects.

Just remorse is not enough.

Just repentance is not enough because any sin has an effect on you or others.

The Catchism of the Catholic Church explains that there are two effects of sin: eternal punishment and temporal punishment, and also what is required for penance.

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain .84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.” 85

84 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.
85 Eph 4:22, 24.

1450 “Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction.” 49

49 Roman Catechism II,V,21; cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1673.

CCEO (canon law)

Canon 718

In the sacrament of penance, the Christian faithful who committed sins after baptism, internally led by the Holy Spirit, turn back to God, moved by the pain of sin, intent on entering a new life through the ministry of the priest, having themselves made a confession and accepted an appropriate penance, obtain forgiveness from God and at the same time are reconciled with the Church which they injured by sinning; by this sacrament they are brought to a greater fostering of the Christian life and are thus disposed for receiving the Divine Eucharist.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

A true believer remorse but remorsing alone is not enough because any sin has an effect and we are responsible for the effects.

Just remorse is not enough.

Just repentance is not enough because any sin has an effect on you or others.

Well, I’m glad you’re not God Bahman!

 

[Bahman]

The Catchism of the Catholic Church explains that there are two effects of sin: eternal punishment and temporal punishment, and also what is required for penance.

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain .84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.” 85

84 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.
85 Eph 4:22, 24.

1450 “Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction.” 49

49 Roman Catechism II,V,21; cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1673.

CCEO (canon law)

Canon 718

In the sacrament of penance, the Christian faithful who committed sins after baptism, internally led by the Holy Spirit, turn back to God, moved by the pain of sin, intent on entering a new life through the ministry of the priest, having themselves made a confession and accepted an appropriate penance, obtain forgiveness from God and at the same time are reconciled with the Church which they injured by sinning; by this sacrament they are brought to a greater fostering of the Christian life and are thus disposed for receiving the Divine Eucharist.

Eternal suffering for a single sin is meaningless.