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Bahman
Guest
So you are saying that your God is not just?
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V
Vico
Guest
No, there can be no love without free will choice, so God has created us with that capability. Since the sinner chooses not to love God, it is self chosen isolation from God.Eternal suffering for a single sin is meaningless.
Catechism (regarding free will of angels)
392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271
393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272
Catechism (regarding self-exclusion from communion with God)
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
B
Bahman
Guest
This make sense if and only if it applies to Christian.No, there can be no love without free will choice, so God has created us with that capability. Since the sinner chooses not to love God, it is self chosen isolation from God.
V
Vico
Guest
I do not understand how that could be true.This make sense if and only if it applies to Christian.
B
Bahman
Guest
Because people are minimally responsible for what they do based on what they have accepted as truth. Why people should be punished for what they have accepted as truth if they are really sincere?I do not understand how that could be true.
V
Vico
Guest
You are talking about culpability, and invincible ignorance. To be culpable requires malice, or passion not resisted, or willful ignorance, and God informs mankind through conscience of what is right and wrong, yet due to environment is may be clouded. Once learning of the moral character of a sinful act, one may be culpable.Because people are minimally responsible for what they do based on what they have accepted as truth. Why people should be punished for what they have accepted as truth if they are really sincere?
Christian belief is that God first gives actual grace to a human, and the hope is that there will be baptism (by water, desire, or blood) so that the gifts of charity, faith, and hope will be infused, through baptism, and that the person, strengthened against sin, will continue in a state of habitual grace to the end.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
As people have told you over and over, God’ justice is tempered with mercy. Why can’t you understand that concept?So you are saying that your God is not just?
B
Bahman
Guest
I don’t understand you. Could you please elaborate with simpler English?You are talking about culpability, and invincible ignorance. To be culpable requires malice, or passion not resisted, or willful ignorance, and God informs mankind through conscience of what is right and wrong, yet due to environment is may be clouded. Once learning of the moral character of a sinful act, one may be culpable.
How baptism could strengthen us against sins? You need mental exercise to become strong against sins.Christian belief is that God first gives actual grace to a human, and the hope is that there will be baptism (by water, desire, or blood) so that the gifts of charity, faith, and hope will be infused, through baptism, and that the person, strengthened against sin, will continue in a state of habitual grace to the end.
B
Bahman
Guest
I understand what you are trying to say but what you say is not rational to me. Consider two person one with a few sins and another with a sinful life. How they could be equal after forgiveness?As people have told you over and over, God’ justice is tempered with mercy. Why can’t you understand that concept?
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Their hearts. How they feel in their hearts. Lots of people never really sin, but never really do any good either. They are lukewarm and judgmental of their fellow man. A sinner who does a lot of good in the world would probably judged better by God than a person who doesn’t do anything but look down on sinners.I understand what you are trying to say but what you say is not rational to me. Consider two person one with a few sins and another with a sinful life. How they could be equal after forgiveness?
V
Vico
Guest
Supernatural grace is given by baptism which is the source of strength mainly to the will but also to the mind. St. Augustine from his treatise on Nature and Grace:I don’t understand you. Could you please elaborate with simpler English?
How baptism could strengthen us against sins? You need mental exercise to become strong against sins.
“For God does not command the impossible; but when he commands, He warns you to do what you can, and to pray for what you cannot do, and He helps you so that you can do it.”
Culpable means deserving blame.
Ignorance is lack of knowledge about a thing in a being capable of knowing. Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of the ignorance even through use of moral diligence, which is morally possible and obligatory.
You are talking about culpability, and invincible ignorance. To be culpable requires malice, or passion not resisted, or willful ignorance, and God informs mankind through conscience of what is right and wrong, yet due to environment is may be clouded. Once learning of the moral character of a sinful act, one may be culpable.
B
Bahman
Guest
You didn’t answer my question instead argue in another line.Their hearts. How they feel in their hearts. Lots of people never really sin, but never really do any good either. They are lukewarm and judgmental of their fellow man. A sinner who does a lot of good in the world would probably judged better by God than a person who doesn’t do anything but look down on sinners
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
I indirectly answered your question. You seem to be a person who is very judgmental and has no understanding of mercy for sinners.You didn’t answer my question instead argue in another line.
B
Bahman
Guest
No. You didn’t either indirectly answer my question.I indirectly answered your question.
I am certainly not.You seem to be a person who is very judgmental and has no understanding of mercy for sinners.
V
Vico
Guest
If a person dies in the state of grace (is forgiven of the guilt of sins) there may remain, still, the temporal punishment which requires the state of purgatory after death. After the final judgement, those in heaven or hell, have different states based upon their works. The Council of Florence (1438-1445) teaches that those in heaven willI understand what you are trying to say but what you say is not rational to me. Consider two person one with a few sins and another with a sinful life. How they could be equal after forgiveness?
“see clearly the one and Triune God Himself, just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another.”
Romans 2:6, states that God “will render to every man according to his works.”
Council of Trent teaches in dogma that:
Canon 32.
If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.
B
Bahman
Guest
So our sins are not forgiven knowing the fact that we go purgatory temporary for our sins.If a person dies in the state of grace (is forgiven of the guilt of sins) there may remain, still, the temporal punishment which requires the state of purgatory after death. After the final judgement, those in heaven or hell, have different states based upon their works. The Council of Florence (1438-1445) teaches that those in heaven will
“see clearly the one and Triune God Himself, just as He is, yet according to the diversity of merits, one more perfectly than another.”
Romans 2:6, states that God “will render to every man according to his works.”
Council of Trent teaches in dogma that:
Canon 32.
If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.
V
Vico
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that there are two consequences of grave sin. Even after the forgiveness (and absolution) of eternal punishment of sin, there is temporal punishment that remains, as well as the consequences of our actions before death that we must endure – we must make satisfaction even after forgiveness of eternal punishment.So our sins are not forgiven knowing the fact that we go purgatory temporary for our sins.
Satisfaction
1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penance.”
The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84
B
Bahman
Guest
Any sin must have limited punishment since it has limited effect so forgiving eternal punishment is meaningless.Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that there are two consequences of grave sin. Even after the forgiveness (and absolution) of eternal punishment of sin, there is temporal punishment that remains, as well as the consequences of our actions before death that we must endure – we must make satisfaction even after forgiveness of eternal punishment.
Satisfaction
1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penance.”
The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84
V
Vico
Guest
The soul is eternal, so eternal punishment is possible.Any sin must have limited punishment since it has limited effect so forgiving eternal punishment is meaningless.
B
Bahman
Guest
We are not talking about the possibility of eternal punishment. We are rather talking about the fact that eternal punishment is not right since any sin has limited effect.The soul is eternal, so eternal punishment is possible.
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