What is the point of praying?

[Neithan]

When Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed that the Father would relieve him of suffering, to “Let this cup pass”’ but he also prayed for the Father’s Will to be done. As the Son, he also knew and willed it, and because he is one Person, not two, his humanity also knew it, and yet he still prayed for relief. That’s the most powerful example of petitionary prayer, and demonstrates that the purpose is to conform our will to God, not to get what we want, but to express our desires and then accept and obey, because we can’t do otherwise anyway, so we may as well be at peace with it. That’s the essential difference between the souls in heaven and those in hell, isn’t it?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

That’s the most powerful example of petitionary prayer, and demonstrates that the purpose is to conform our will to God, not to get what we want, but to express our desires and then accept and obey, because we can’t do otherwise anyway, so we may as well be at peace with it.

Well, our Lord also prayed for unity of Christians. That was not to align His will with Fathers- He knew that Father also wills unity of Christians. Church prays for Bishops, Pope and we also pray for many other people during Prayer of the Faithful. We ask something from God directly… which is why I am wondering what good does that do.

I get that it builds up relationship… but I think that asking God for something does the opposite of that.

If only way asking God for something changes outcome is that it changes us, then we could as well just meditate or think about it ourselves and there would be no need to pray to God about that. If we deeply think about something we aren’t asking God without giving anything, and we are changing outcome same way. If we ask God there is always a risk of being all about asking favors and not contributing enough, as well as risk of us trying to throw responsibility away.

 

[Neithan]

We ask something from God directly… which is why I am wondering what good does that do.

1. It expresses our human will honestly and fully, and demonstrates our recognition that we receive everything from God.
2. It conforms our will with the Will of God.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Because God is infinitely and absolutely good. Which means He can’t grant us our wishes if they are bad. However, if they are good He will grant them even without us asking. So there is generally no point in begging God because it won’t change His mind. Us begging changes nothing about whether thing is good or bad. God can’t not do good thing. He can’t abstain from action when action is good but therefore He would grant our wish anyway. We and our wishes are infinitely less important than nature of God is.

expresses our human will honestly and fully, and demonstrates our recognition that we receive everything from God.

We can demonstrate that without asking. Even if I ask God for something there is no way that changes the outcome. Either God would assure the right and good thing and I would get it anyway, or it isn’t ultimately good thing and no amount of begging can change God’s decision. We can thank God for everything we are, we can express our concerns but trying to ask God for help has no meaning because our prayers do not affect His actions.

 

[Neithan]

We can thank God for everything we are, we can express our concerns but trying to ask God for help has no meaning because our prayers do not affect His actions.

If you honestly want something, then telling God and asking him for it is honest. That is a good thing, and honesty has meaning. Did Jesus’ request of the Father to spare him the Passion have no meaning?

[There is a purgative element in petition.]

 

[fhansen]

From Eden until now God wants us involved, in our perfecting, in our drawing near to Him, in our changing and living up to the potential He created us for, in our coming from darkness into greater and greater light, from being lost to being found. Man needs God and so man exists in a state of rectitude or right order to the extent that he lives in a relationship of loving subjugation to and dependency upon Him. So anything that we sincerely ask for with that end in mind, will be answered.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

If you honestly want something, then telling God and asking him for it is honest.

But telling someone you want something and asking for it are two different things. We specifically ask God for things in Liturgy.

Did Jesus’ request of the Father to spare him the Passion have no meaning?

It did not change the outcome. Did it have meaning? Perhaps in uniting human nature with God’s will but that could be done without asking God to spare Him the passion so I am not quite sure. There are many problems with what I perceive about prayer and I admitted that- I think Church has to get it right. I just dont understand how.

From Eden until now God wants us involved

But we aren’t nor ever will be on par with God in decision making, power nor any other attribute. God wants us involved in actions, but we are soldiers not the generals. We are here to do His will, not ours. He isn’t there to do our will, but His.

So anything that we sincerely ask for with that end in mind, will be answered.

Well, first we see that our Lord asked Father to spare him Passion but that did not happen despite pleas of God the Son. If God the Son’s pleas don’t change what God intended how could ours? Even if we ask for objectively good things from our perspective (“please let there be no abortions ever again”) it won’t happen just because we asked for it. God has to respect much more and He is fully good while being omniscient. He knows what His actions will do and what He has and needs to do even without our pleas and as I said, they don’t change what God would do.

My point is that every good thing about us asking God for help could be replaced with more honest plea for change of our heart/for receiving clarity or similar things. We could literally avoid begging God because it has no direct effect anyway. We could directly do what begging God does indirectly. Yet that is not how Church does things nor as Scripture describes prayers.

 

[christismylord]

I think God plans and urges us to pray in certain circumstances, whether it be for someone’s salvation, wellbeing, an opportunity, etc. This is part of His will: cause and effect. Person X will pray for intention Y and then I will make the riches of my mercy known to the world by blessing it through answering that prayer. I think our prayers can be inspired and premeditated by God because He likes to answer them to bring about our praise for His grace.

Of course, if your prayers aren’t answered, it means it would not have been good for God to grant this, and in His mercy, He chooses what’s best for the world.

John 14:13 “Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.”

So we can see a reason right there: when we ask in Jesus’s name, (if our request is according to His Will) then He will answer it, *so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.”

Also: Mark 11:24 “Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.”

God likes faith, sometimes He rewards our faith by His (undeserved by us) grace. He may strengthen our faith by answering our prayer, He may bless us simply out of the ocean of love He has for His creation. And then in this way, He brings about praise to Himself by us.

 

[anon16282382]

St. Ignatius of Loyola prayed a lot and received visions. He later found out those visions are from Satan

Yeah. My priest reads St. John of the Cross and always tells me never to rely on signs of any kind, partly because they could be satanic, and also they are simply not necessary for holiness or salvation. I struggle at this.

 

[christismylord]

Also, examples of when praying changed the course of what was happening, by God’s grace.

God sent Jonah to tell the city of Nineveh that it would be overthrown because if it’s evil deeds.

Jonah 3:4-5 “Jonah began to go into the city, going a day’s journey. And he called out, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.

Jonah 3:10 “When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.“

So their fasting and action (and presumably prayer) led God to not punish them as He otherwise would have. Now God obviously knew that this would happen and so in this way, by leading them to repentance and prayer, He answered their efforts out of His mercy. He inspires prayer, and uses prayer to bless the world.

Also: here is an example of petitioning that pleased the Lord, by St. Faustina. Her spiritual directer, Father Sopocko was experiencing great suffering and trials from the Lord. She begged the Lord to take it away and He obliged out of love, without taking away what would have been the merits of that suffering. He used this prayer to bless Father Sopocko. If she had not prayed, it is possible that Father Sopocko would have had to suffer more. Notice the words of Jesus, “As you ask, so it shall be,” so we can see that He was obliged to grant graces through her prayer of petition. We can show spiritual mercy to others and help them (or ourselves) out by asking God for grace. As St. Faustina puts it, “God grants everything that we ask of Him with trust.” (Assuming that it is truly for the best, and aligns with His Will.)

“I then pleaded with Jesus for a certain soul [Father Sopocko], asking the Lord to grant him the grace to fight, and to take this trial from him. [Jesus said] “ As you ask, so shall it be, but his merit will not be lessened. ” Joy reigned in my soul that God is so good and merciful; God grants everything that we ask of Him with trust.” (Diary, 609)

 

[fhansen]

But we aren’t nor ever will be on par with God in decision making, power nor any other attribute. God wants us involved in actions, but we are soldiers not the generals. We are here to do His will, not ours. He isn’t there to do our will, but His.

Sure, but we must choose to do His will nonetheless-and that’s what He wants, for our own highest good.

Well, first we see that our Lord asked Father to spare him Passion but that did not happen despite pleas of God the Son. If God the Son’s pleas don’t change what God intended how could ours? Even if we ask for objectively good things from our perspective (“please let there be no abortions ever again”) it won’t happen just because we asked for it. God has to respect much more and He is fully good while being omniscient. He knows what His actions will do and what He has and needs to do even without our pleas and as I said, they don’t change what God would do.

God’s will for us is perfect -and our job is to come to willfully embrace and align ourselves with it, as Jesus did. His will, BTW, was always the same as the Father’s, but in consideration of His foreknowledge of the extreme pain He would have to endure, His human flesh naturally revolted against it. But he still did the “right thing”, which is the point.

My point is that every good thing about us asking God for help could be replaced with more honest plea for change of our heart/for receiving clarity or similar things. We could literally avoid begging God.

Yes-that’s what He wants. He wants that perfected love in us that only He can accomplish. But we’re the obstacle to it and the more we seek and ask for it in faith and true desire, the more we receive it. It doesn’t happen overnight-this world is sort of an incubator for saints, if we’re willing to cooperate.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Sure, but we must choose to do His will nonetheless-and that’s what He wants, for our own highest good.

We can deny God’s will for us in one aspect and choose another. God may call Cardinal to be the Pope but Cardinal can still refuse without damning himself. Also, again you prove my point that we shouldn’t ask God for anything we should just align with His will. Why ask for something if we are not sure if it is or is not His will?

His will, BTW, was always the same as the Father’s, but in consideration of His foreknowledge of the extreme pain He would have to endure, His human flesh naturally revolted against it. But he still did the “right thing”, which is the point.

Yet our Lord put confidence in God into His prayer. Son prayed to Father with plea to be saved from that situation not with plea to “please make this flesh stronger and release it from temptation”.

Yes-that’s what He wants.

Then why does Church pray for end of abortion? God isn’t gonna end it because we asked to. If abortion is evil (which it is), then God will end it one day no matter if we ask or not. We can act and help God in this quest by protesting, sure… but asking in prayer God seems pointless.

 

[fhansen]

Well, first of all Jesus is God. But that didn’t prevent God in human flesh from experiencing and fearing the pain of His own passion. Secondly God is truth personified. Nature/creation is, in a sense, an expression of God. He’s not just another person out there with another opinion-even if we, beginning with Adam, may treat Him as such. But He’s right in the absolute and perfect sense. And all of creation “obeys” His will perfectly except, potentially, rational beings with free will. And rational beings with free will can obey His will more or less perfectly, but perfection is always the goal that He wishes for us-for our own good and happiness. The ultimate in failing to obey His will is mortal sin, where we live in a state of great separation from Him where love is opposed by and destroyed in us. If, OTOH, we were to love perfectly, we’d never disobey in any way-all sin would be automatically excluded. Either way humans and angels are able to sin, which really means to act against their own natures even if, in the moment, they think they’re doing right while obtaining some greater good.

So we can pray for evils to be righted but the only place we have full responsibility is regarding ourselves. We must change first-and we require His help to do that. Meanwhile evil is allowed its freedom as well, for now, for a time, for God’s purposes. It’s a radically free and not necessarily fair world where ‘the rain falls and the sun sets on the good and bad alike’. But if we ask for more faith, more hope, and more love, and really want it, and act accordingly, we’ll receive it. Again, we can grow in this justice/righteousness/perfection -and will achieve it prior to heaven. God is patient in this work but we must cooperate, meaning we must ask, seek, and knock, and act when asked, and do the best we can with whatever knowledge, grace, and time we’re given.

So…we’re not God. That, in fact, is the first and most important lesson for us to really nail down-and we may need to relearn it at times. Man, in his freedom, may not want any obligation to a higher authority but we are obligated, obligated to be righteous, obligated to obey, obligated to love, truth be known. But it’s a choice, or a series of choices.

 

[MPat]

King David fasted yet that did not help him from God’s punishment. After that, King David stopped fasting and said that there is no point anymore. Yet we know that God is absolutely good- He will never do thing that is not good and will never fail to do thing that is good. Therefore if we ask God for something that isn’t absolutely good He won’t do it. If we ask God for something that is absolutely good He would do it anyway without us asking. There seems to be no point to our prayer if we ask God for something or pray for someone.

Have you considered that what is “absolutely good” can depend on you asking or not asking?

That is, perhaps, in some cases, if you pray for something, it becomes good that you would receive it. Perhaps in such case you would recognise that it was a response to a prayer, be more happy, thank God, which is good. And if you were given the same thing without praying, you would lose that same good.

 

[Hume]

Prayer is meditative and cathartic.

It doesn’t change anything except yourself.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Have you considered that what is “absolutely good” can depend on you asking or not asking?

That is, perhaps, in some cases, if you pray for something, it becomes good that you would receive it. Perhaps in such case you would recognise that it was a response to a prayer, be more happy, thank God, which is good. And if you were given the same thing without praying, you would lose that same good.

I see. That makes perfect sense. So basically by asking we make thing to be better because we increase value of positive effect thing has and God does things that are better than all other things. Thank you for this response, I feel like you solved the case for me

 

[Justin_Mary]

My concern is largely that asking God for something in prayer or praying for someone else has no real effect.

How much do you know about the Saints? A big part of our belief of who is & who isn’t in heaven is based on evidence of answered prayers.

 

[CelticWarlord]

I think of prayer strictly as conversation with God. There’s nothing I can ask for he does not already know, yet I bring these things up anyway, like I would have with my parents. In performing formal prayer from the LOTH or the Rosary it is a discipline that helps keep my mind focused.

But most of my prayer, the vast majority, takes place when I’m walking or riding my bike and is totally casual. I have found that having the body occupied in a way that requires little attention frees the mind. I can walk for miles and have no recollection of where I’ve been at all, I’ve been so engrossed in sharing my mind with God. I do get responses, constantly, a genuine dialog. So as to your concern that these things may be of Satan, there is only one measuring stick one needs to employ; is this exercise spawning greater love or sowing seeds of doubt. If the latter, one need only shift focus and try again. God does not invite prayer in order to make it difficult.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

How much do you know about the Saints? A big part of our belief of who is & who isn’t in heaven is based on evidence of answered prayers.

Exactly. I knew my point has to be wrong because of that (and multiple other reasons). I just wanted to know where did I make mistake in my reasoning.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I get that it builds up relationship… but I think that asking God for something does the opposite of that.

I think it depends on what we ask. Remember when Noah asked God to save humanity? When Abram asked to save Sodom? When Moses asked to spare the people God just saved?