What is the purpose of such a large universe?

[Quatsch]

I don’t have trouble with many philosohical questions, but this one I have a hard time with. What could God’s purpose be for creating such a massive universe? My normal answer to such a question would be that he made if for us. However, the universe is so huge that I can’t imagine humanity ever being able to make use of it all. Indeed, it is so massive that I don’t imagine people ever even being able to even know everything that is out there. So how, then, could it be for us? Or, is my premise flawed? Did God create some things for a purpose other than us. Or is there more than just us, and those other beings are what some of creation is for? Finally, maybe humanity will live for billions of years and eventually be able to appreciate or make use of all of the universe? What do you all think is the reason for such a large universe?

Larry

I’ve never even considered this question before, but I grant you that it is interesting.

There is one thought that comes to my mind (probably from being a grad student in engineering), though.

We know that the universe is infinitely large (since astronomers have shown that it is growing into whatever infinite void is outside the universe). Likewise there are things in the universe that are infinitely small (unless of course the theory about time actually occurring in extremely short discrete steps instead of continuously). I’m not sure exactly what the link is, but I think in some respect that in order for the infinitely small to exist, the infinitely large must also exist.

For a brief example to those who are interested, I would offer the line of real numbers. Each element must have an inverse, and naturally the inverse of the infinitely large is the infinitely small, so the two kind of go hand in hand.

I haven’t read the rest of the thread, but if anyone is intrigued by this I would enjoy hearing some thoughts on it.

Cheers,

Q

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**But what do all those theories have to do with the existence of God?

God gave us this world and this universe, that can’t ever be explained nor explored. OK we know the nearest hemisphere – so what?

The big bang theory is ridiculous, as we all know that nothing bangs if there’s nothing – and as there was something, where did something come from?!
So why not stick to the simplest of all realizations. God made it and He keeps it going for a while.
There’s no other reason for it’s going.

Why should it keep temperature in an exceptional range we can live on. In the Universe there are temperatures of a Billion grades plus to absolute zero. Just one of the many odds our so very violative life depends on.
In other words:
The existence of God and His keeping us, is so very obvious. All we have to do, is to realize this.
**

 

[reclavea]

<<<<Bruno Schulz But what do all those theories have to do with the existence of God?..>>>>

The original question on this thread is “What is God’s purpose in having such a massive universe?”

His question is implying his already belief in God.

When I was in high school there were three theories:

1. Steady State
2. Big Bang
3. The dust a gas

In the last 10 - 15 years, incredible breakthroughs in science seem to confirm the Big Bang theory. There is a consensus now on the Big Bang Theory among Astronomers and cosmologists.

This is great in my view because someone had to light the fuse!!
…implying a creator!

Many have belief in God because of faith. Still others need more (reasons). God in his mercy provides this for those who are learned.

Astronomers and scientist I believe, see proof of his existence everywhere they study! The laws that govern this universe and the parameters that are in place are sooooooo finely tuned that for it to be setup this way by chance…is IMPOSSIBLE! (see last phrase at bottom).

Unbelievers believe life formed easily on it’s own (unintentionally) with common everyday elements and with no intelligence involved or trying. Yet scientist cannot do this (intentionally trying!!) with these common elements.

Yet, as the saying goes at the end of the movie “Bernadette” (story of Lourdes) this may ring true…“For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.”

There is only so much that can be done for ignorance which is being dumb on purpose…and…

“There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know.”

Peace
Ron

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

His question is implying his already belief in God.

No question, but addressed are those, who believe in “alive and creating” physics, rather than in the creating God. Christians rather might be reminded of facts they know anyway.

three theories:

1. Steady State 2. Big Bang 3. The dust a gas.

That will remain in peace (or anger), till last remains of atheists will see God Himself. And they all will se God in His might, power and Glory.

incredible breakthroughs in science seem to confirm the Big Bang theory. There is a consensus now on the Big Bang Theory among Astronomers and cosmologists.

Even when the vast majority tells us - it was a mere constellation of physics, this “Philosophy” won’t become true. (And what was before that dust of gas and where did it come from as there was NOTHING before?)
Naturally we can’t proof Gods existence, but neither atheists can proof His non-existence - and this is how it’s wanted to be by God. It must be so, for otherwise faith wouldn’t be necessary.

This is great in my view because someone had to light the fuse!!
rather than in the creating God.

Yes, there was nothing and nobody but God and Gods will – the Holy spirit. “Nothing” means nothing in the hemisphere of today’s “Universe”.
Gods Kingdom however had been and existed ever and in all eternity

incredible breakthroughs in science seem to confirm the Big Bang theory. There is a consensus now on the Big Bang Theory among Astronomers and cosmologists.

Naturally we can’t proof Gods existence, but neither atheists can proofe Hs non-existence - and this is how it’s wanted to be by God.

Many have belief in God because of faith. Still others need more (reasons). God in his mercy provides this for those who are learned.

God doesn’t endlessly provide more reasons to believe, than He did already. A lot even are held away from believe as I stated before: Jesus said in Luke 8:10 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand. ’

Unbelievers believe life formed easily on it’s own (unintentionally) with common everyday elements and with no intelligence involved or trying. Yet scientist cannot do this (intentionally trying!!) with these common elements.

Nothing forms itself out of nothing. Something must, as we know, be there before. And besides. “Nature” if it grows wildly by itself, there no harmony, but deadly cancer, killing itself by growing.

There is only so much that can be done for ignorance which is being dumb on purpose…and…
“There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know.”

What we really have to learn, is to recognize God in everything that is (Ignatius of Loyola).

Yours
Bruno-Maria-Schulz at Krippenfiguren.com

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is not for discussing the existence of God. If anyone wants to discuss that topic, please take it to a new or existing thread. Thank you all.

 

[JimG]

I suspect that the universe is just the right size.

If one accepts the Big Bang as a working theory for the beginning and expansion of the universe; if one accepts the various physical constants governing the laws of physics–i.e., the speed of light, the gravitational constant, and others, it is quite likely true that the universe unfolded just as it had to given those parameters.

I’ve heard that if any of those physical parameters were ‘off’’ by just a bit, the universe would have developed quite differently, galaxies would not have formed, supernovas would not have occured, planets would not have formed, and WE would not be here.

So I think the universe is just the right size to account for us.

 

[jstarkf]

I have struggled with this question also. I call it the Crab Nebula problem. The Crab Nebula is an enormous, enormous, enormous nebula of uncountable trillions of stars. Why? Why is it there? And it’s just one of many such features of the universe as we have discovered it so far. American poet Mark Van Doren wrote about this question. His poem helps quite a bit, at least for me. Here it is:

THE GOD OF GALAXIES
By Mark Van Doren

The god of galaxies has more to govern
Than the first men imagined, when one mountain
Trumpeted his anger, and one rainbow,
Red in the east, restored them to his love.
One earth it was, with big and lesser torches,
And stars by night for candles. And he spoke
To single persons, sitting in their tents.

Now streams of worlds, now powdery great whirlwinds
Of universes far enough away
To seem but fog-wisps in a bank of night
So measureless the mind can sicken trying—
Now seas of darkness, shoreless, on and on
Encircled by themselves, yet washing farther
Than the last triple sun, revolving, shows.

The god of galaxies—how shall we praise him?
For so we must, or wither. Yet what word
Of words? And where to send it, on which night
Of winter stars, of summer, or by autumn
In the first evening of the Pleiades?
The god of galaxies, of burning gases,
May have forgotten Leo and the Bull.

But God remembers, and is everywhere.
He is even in the void, where nothing shines.
He is the absence of his own reflection
In the deep gulf; he is the dusky cinder
Of pure fire in its prime; he is the place
Prepared for the hugest planets; black idea,
Brooding between fierce poles he keeps apart.

Those altitudes and oceans, though, with islands
Drifting, blown immense as by a wind,
And yet no wind; and not one blazing coast
Where thought could live, could listen—oh, what word
Of words? Let us consider in terror,
And say it without voice. Praise universes
Numberless. Praise all of them. Praise Him.

 

[reclavea]

JimG wrote:
<>>

True…but if you really think about it…the universe size is not constant…it is expanding at the speed of light! It is getting bigger and growing every second by 186,000 miles or 700 million miles an hour!

Again, this rate of expansion counters and balances precisely the effects of gravity and allows galaxies to form, planets to orbit and of course life to exist.

According to some…a static universe that has always existed has no room for god.

Einstein believed in a static universe (not expanding) and realized his theories on gravity show that this universe would have collapsed in on itself due to gravity. His theories actually implied an expanding universe and he chose not to trust these implications and he developed his “Comological Constant” which is some force in a static universe that somehow counters the effects of gravity thereby maintaining stability.

He refused to abandon his Cosmological Constant until he met with Edwin Hubble and actually see for himself. Hubble by the way, is credited for discovering this expansion.

He called this his biggest blunder! Soon after he quoted this phrase:

*“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.”
*

To the moderator:
I believe i’m still in line with the topic.

Peace
Ron

 

[JimG]

Yes, the universe is expanding. It had to expand in order for subatomic particles to condense out of the original big bang, and for subequent galaxies to coalesce, and for stars to form, and ultimately for planets to form which are capable of sustaining life. If it stayed small we wouldn’t be here. And because we are now here, we can observe its further expansion.

I don’t really see the size of the universe as any more of a problem than the size of the planck length, or the extremely small size of subatomic particles.

Is the universe “too large?” What other size should (or could) it be?

 

[bobzills]

Is the universe “too large?” What other size should (or could) it be?

Where would be the contradiciton if there were in existence only our solar system and nothing else?

 

[Equites_Christi]

Well, I cannot say for sure why it is so big.
But if the universe were only Earth and the Sun, would that satisfy skeptics?
Would not they only say, “Why is the Universe so small, if your God is so mighty?”
It is a very interesting question, and good for musing over, but I am afraid it might be moot for any real enlightenment.

 

[bobzills]

Well, I cannot say for sure why it is so big.
But if the universe were only Earth and the Sun, would that satisfy skeptics?
Would not they only say, “Why is the Universe so small, if your God is so mighty?”
It is a very interesting question, and good for musing over, but I am afraid it might be moot for any real enlightenment.

Thanks for the interesting answer obtained by turning the original question on its head.

 

[reclavea]

Where would be the contradiciton if there were in existence only our solar system and nothing else?

Well, with the existing natural physical laws that god set in place for this universe, that universe (solar system only) would barely even get out of the starting gate. It would not form at all but collapse back in on itself.

However, god could establish a completely new set of “natural” laws for a “Solar system” only universe that will work. However, this scenario would not work for the existing naturals laws we have now.

Peace
Ron

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

We want to know how God created this world. But why?
But why wanting to know what we seriously never could get any other answer for, but: God created it such for us.

Why doesn’t the world for that immense amount of money that’s spend for getting answers from where no answers are, spend this money to fight hunger and the shortage of water? Isn’t it a far more worthy question: Why is there still hunger, diseases, ignorance and terror arising from this bothers, when uncountable money is spend on silly questions like how hot is star # 289704 and why and how did it collaps?
Our brothers and sisters out there starve, rebel against their situation, risk their lives when they flee hunger on tiny boats. And what do we do? We watch this and spend another billion to find out if there are traces of primitive former life on Mars or to find out how cold asteroid #… is.

Let’s just see this wonderful Universe in it’s beauty and accept, that we of course NEVER will know how God created this world. The mere idea of wanting to know Gods acting or ideas, is blasphemy.
Even Hawkins said: “If we’d know why constellations of the Universe are as they are, we’d KNOW GODS PLAN”.

But we’ll never never never know – but we will see and know a unmatchable amount more, when we see God. We all will see God and all facts of the Universe after our death. So let’s wait iin patience and do good until then, instead of wasting the God given resources and money and capabilities on silly questions of which we know there’s no answer, whilst our bretheren die of starvation.

 

[bobzills]

We want to know how God created this world. But why?
But why wanting to know what we seriously never could get any other answer for, but: God created it such for us.

Why doesn’t the world for that immense amount of money that’s spend for getting answers from where no answers are, spend this money to fight hunger and the shortage of water? Isn’t it a far more worthy question: Why is there still hunger, diseases, ignorance and terror arising from this bothers, when uncountable money is spend on silly questions like how hot is star # 289704 and why and how did it collaps?
Our brothers and sisters out there starve, rebel against their situation, risk their lives when they flee hunger on tiny boats. And what do we do? We watch this and spend another billion to find out if there are traces of primitive former life on Mars or to find out how cold asteroid #… is.

Let’s just see this wonderful Universe in it’s beauty and accept, that we of course NEVER will know how God created this world. The mere idea of wanting to know Gods acting or ideas, is blasphemy.
Even Hawkins said: “If we’d know why constellations of the Universe are as they are, we’d KNOW GODS PLAN”.

But we’ll never never never know – but we will see and know a unmatchable amount more, when we see God. We all will see God and all facts of the Universe after our death. So let’s wait iin patience and do good until then, instead of wasting the God given resources and money and capabilities on silly questions of which we know there’s no answer, whilst our bretheren die of starvation.

Some of the scientific knowledge gained by asking seemingly irrelevant questions can be put to use in alleviating hunger and misery. For example, last time I checked, there were about 300 nuclear power plants in operation providing much needed electricity to improve human living conditions.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

Some of the scientific knowledge gained by asking seemingly irrelevant questions can be put to use in alleviating hunger and misery. For example, last time I checked, there were about 300 nuclear power plants in operation providing much needed electricity to improve human living conditions.

**Can be or rather could be (put to use in alleviating hunger and misery)?
What’s the percentage that’s put to use in alleviating hunger and misery? 0,00000000000000001% ?

Those bout 300 nuclear power plants in operation providing much needed electricity to improve human living conditions.
Living conditions of whom? Never the poor.
Those very poor don’t even have lines to get electricity or they can’t pay it. It’s we who improve our living conditions for us; and hardly so across scientific knowledge about the Universe.

Scientific research about the Universe costs immense more than a victory over the hunger of the world would cost. I wonder how we will justify this fact before God one day, as surely God will ask us this embarrassing question.

Do we have an answer? Could we answer: Oh, we wanted to explore the reasons of Your creation outside of our world. Won’t Jesus answer: (Matthew 25:42) ‘I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’**

 

[bobzills]

Can be or rather could be (put to use in alleviating hunger and misery)?
What’s the percentage that’s put to use in alleviating hunger and misery? 0,00000000000000001% ?.'

I would say that it is a much larger percentage than what you have indicated here. In many cases, electricity is a very necessary part of food processing.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic, folks. Take side discussions to new or existing threads in the appropriate fora. Thank you all.

 

[teachccd]

To give the earth some elbow room??

 

[reclavea]

To give the earth some elbow room??

The Big Bang and it’s implications provides a very plausible answer.

An expanding universe that started from zero and continued expanding (faster than the speed of light!!) of course will be very HUGE after 15 billion years or so!

This expansion and the rate of expansion is the key to the order, stability and beauty we see in the cosmos.

According to the natural laws …if not for this expansion, not even our tiny miniscule Solar System will exist.

Eventually the universe will be twice it’s size now…and then 10 times, 30 times…1000 times …its present size!
Super deluperly HUGE!!!

Way before this though…the universe will stretch to a point that matter can no longer coalesce and will be one big cold void.:crying:

There’s some Good News however… as a new heaven and a new earth will be established where we all can be with our Lord and his Saints forever and ever!!:extrahappy:

Peace
Ron