what is the REAL reason why protestants reject mary?

[4given]

So you are rejecting the Mary of scripture, and in fact you are rejecting Christ’s own example of how to act in regard to her. Away with you and your stiff-necked pride and worthless pseudo-logic.

I think we’ll just have to disagree on the subject.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Can’t place the quote, but there’s a saying in regard to Mary - ‘to reject the Mother is one step away from rejecting the son’.

Follow Jesus’ example? Didn’t he follow the command to honor his mother, and follow it perfectly as he did all the commandments? Was he himself not ‘subject’ to her (and yes, the Bible does use that word) for thirty-odd years before he began his ministry? Where are your thirty years of subjection to her, since you are so set on following his example?

Didn’t he perform a miracle at her request? Have you ever done the least dang-blamed thing for her? HOW are you following his example in these particulars?

And when he said ‘blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it’, name one person apart from Christ himself who did this better than Mary? He was declaring her blessed for her obedience!!! She is the most blessed of all humans after Christ himself IF ONLY for this one reason.

So you are rejecting the Mary of scripture, and in fact you are rejecting Christ’s own example of how to act in regard to her. Away with you and your stiff-necked pride and worthless pseudo-logic.

Hi,
I am following His example when I honor my own mother. There is such little about Mary in the bible. I do agree with how 4given explained it.
Where is the verse that speaks about how Mary and Jesus’s brothers came to see him and He said who are my mother and brothers–those who follow me. (Im paraphrasing of course)but Jesus did not give her any glory in that statement even remotely equal to Him. Mary was chosen by God to give birth to our Lord and Savior Praise be to God, but that is as far as it goes at least biblically. Moses and Noah and David and Abraham etc. were all chosen by God for a specific purpose as well. Moses was given fantastic praise by the Jews and they still do I think. He was doing the Will of God just like Mary. Neither of them wanted any praise they simply worshipped God and gave Him all the Glory.

 

[4given]

I think I have, at one time or another, seen every statement you’ve made discussed from the Catholic point of view. Probably our Catholic friends here at CAF are busy finding their materials on kekharitomene, on John 3 and “behold your Mother” and Revelations 12 and the ark and hyperdoulia and all the rest, and it will soon all be posted, or other threads listed, with great vigor, because Catholics often have a deep emotional devotion to Mary, and take any criticism in the same vein as if you slammed their Mom, because, to them, that is who she is. Not kidding. Catholics look at her with deep love and respect and Protestants look on the whole thing as idolatry. That’s why we get along so well.

And I’ve certainly heard a good deal of the standard arguments from the Cathoic pov as well. They can get busy with their materials and everything but I’m interested in what the Scritpures only reveal about Mary and when I look at that and then look at the Mary of Catholcism I don’t really see a match. The last thing the Mary of Scripture is recorded as saying is “whatever He says, do it.” She wouldn’t want, in my opinion, all of this hulabaloo going on over her. And, yes, I do look upon the whole thing as idolatry since you brought it up. I’m aware that many Catholics have a deep love and respect for her but many take it way too far. Jesus gets pushed aside because some Catholics are convinced that he’s harsh and stern and they need to go through Mary to reach Him. That’s just not true.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Catholics look at her with deep love and respect and Protestants look on the whole thing as idolatry. That’s why we get along so well.

Spot on!

 

[4given]

Hi,
I am following His example when I honor my own mother. There is such little about Mary in the bible. I do agree with how 4given explained it.
Where is the verse that speaks about how Mary and Jesus’s brothers came to see him and He said who are my mother and brothers–those who follow me. (Im paraphrasing of course)but Jesus did not give her any glory in that statement even remotely equal to Him. Mary was chosen by God to give birth to our Lord and Savior Praise be to God, but that is as far as it goes at least biblically. Moses and Noah and David and Abraham etc. were all chosen by God for a specific purpose as well. Moses was given fantastic praise by the Jews and they still do I think. He was doing the Will of God just like Mary. Neither of them wanted any praise they simply worshipped God and gave Him all the Glory.

Here it is:

Matthew 12:46-50
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,
I am following His example when I honor my own mother. There is such little about Mary in the bible. I do agree with how 4given explained it.
Where is the verse that speaks about how Mary and Jesus’s brothers came to see him and He said who are my mother and brothers–those who follow me. (Im paraphrasing of course)but Jesus did not give her any glory in that statement even remotely equal to Him. Mary was chosen by God to give birth to our Lord and Savior Praise be to God, but that is as far as it goes at least biblically. Moses and Noah and David and Abraham etc. were all chosen by God for a specific purpose as well. Moses was given fantastic praise by the Jews and they still do I think. He was doing the Will of God just like Mary. Neither of them wanted any praise they simply worshipped God and gave Him all the Glory.

Hi,
I found the Scriptue I was looking for.
Matthew 12:46-50
12:46
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
12:47
Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
**12:48
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
12:49
Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
12:50
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” **
That is a pretty strong to the point statement and pretty much puts Mary on the same level playing field as any other true believer in Christ.

I would think if Christ wanted us to put Mary in a higher category He would have told us. Rather I think He did tell us where she stands in the above verse.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Hold it!

To ask for a “Catholic POV” and then require us to respond using only the fundamental error of Sola Scriptura which is a modern invention that has been answered many many times since it first blew in as a new wind of doctrine in the 16th century is to stack the question.

There is ample scriptural evidence to support 2,000 years of Marian devotion, but don’t come in and ask us to answer based on scripture alone.

One can believe anything one wants to but if you ask for a Catholic response, it is unreasonable and probably somewhat deceitful to expect a non-Catholic response from faithful Catholics.

Settle down people.
MF

 

[4given]

Since the OP asks what’s the real reason PROTESTANTS reject Mary shouldn’t the Protestants here be able to respond according to what they believe? After all, if the OP wants to know why Protestants reject what he or she thinks they’re rejecting, they should be the ones to answer it sounds like to me. If he or she wants Protestant reasons, he or she might want some Protestant answers.

 

[carol_marie]

Thought I’d let you know I’m a she and not a he. I don’t think I’m missing out on anything. My focus is on Christ where it should be. I’m sorry but Mary is given entirely too much attentioln in the CC and I believe she herself would be unhappy about it if she knew.

Opps. Sorry for thinking you were a he! It’s hard to tell who’s who from the comfort of my dining room!

I can SOOOOOO relate to what you’re saying. I am certain I said it so many times prior to becoming Catholic. You’re probably not going to believe me, but I’m gonna say it anyhow. Honestly, Mary draws people closer to her Son. The people I know who are the most devoted to Mary, are also the MOST Christlike… the MOST devoted, totally in love with Jesus and living their lives serving Him every single day.

When I was on the other side looking in (as you are) I thought it was all about Mary. I thought Catholics worshiped her instead of Jesus. That is so far from the truth. It is all about Jesus… and Mary has a role in that - just as we all do.

Does it bug me when we say things like she the co-redemtrix? Yes. I think it’s confusing & misleading. (Apparently “co” doesn’t mean what we think it means.) But by and large, I am certain that Jesus is pleased with the role we allow His dear Mother to play in bringing so many souls to Him. How could He not be?

God Bless,
CM

 

[Darrel]

Since the OP asks what’s the real reason PROTESTANTS reject Mary shouldn’t the Protestants here be able to respond according to what they believe? After all, if the OP wants to know why Protestants reject what he or she thinks they’re rejecting, they should be the ones to answer it sounds like to me. If he or she wants Protestant reasons, he or she might want some Protestant answers.

The OP asked the question from the standpoint of the early reformers giving Mary proper honor. This is not the protestant case in the present. The question was directed to anyone who cared to answer. So why did the ealry reformers not say what protestants say now? Is it a different interpretation of scripture?

-D

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Opps. Sorry for thinking you were a he! It’s hard to tell who’s who from the comfort of my dining room!

I can SOOOOOO relate to what you’re saying. I am certain I said it so many times prior to becoming Catholic. You’re probably not going to believe me, but I’m gonna say it anyhow. Honestly, Mary draws people closer to her Son. The people I know who are the most devoted to Mary, are also the MOST Christlike… the MOST devoted, totally in love with Jesus and living their lives serving Him every single day.

When I was on the other side looking in (as you are) I thought it was all about Mary. I thought Catholics worshiped her instead of Jesus. That is so far from the truth. It is all about Jesus… and Mary has a role in that - just as we all do.

Does it bug me when we say things like she the co-redemtrix? Yes. I think it’s confusing & misleading. (Apparently “co” doesn’t mean what we think it means.) But by and large, I am certain that Jesus is pleased with the role we allow His dear Mother to play in bringing so many souls to Him. How could He not be?

God Bless,
CM

Hi,
I am glad to hear that Carol. It is so hard when catholics may say things that the CC may not teach because then we are getting false info. So you can imagine how difficult it is for us.

 

[Genesis315]

Here it is:

Matthew 12:46-50
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

This is a classic objection going way back. Here St. Augustine answers it:

"Stretching out his hand over his disples, the Lord Chist declared: Here are my mother and my brothers, anyone who does the will of my Father who sent me is my brother and my sister and my mother. I would urge you to ponder these words. Did the Virgin Mary, who believed by faith and conceived by faith, who was the chosen one from whom our Savior was born among men, who was created by Christ before Christ was created in her–did she not do the will of the Father? Indeed the blessed Mary certainly did the Father’s will, and so it was for her a greater thing to have been Christ’s disciple than to have been his mother, and she was more blessed in her discipleship than in her motherhood. Hers was the happiness of first bearing in her womb him whom she would obey as her master.

 

[LilyM]

Hi,
I am following His example when I honor my own mother. There is such little about Mary in the bible. I do agree with how 4given explained it.
Where is the verse that speaks about how Mary and Jesus’s brothers came to see him and He said who are my mother and brothers–those who follow me. (Im paraphrasing of course)but Jesus did not give her any glory in that statement even remotely equal to Him. Mary was chosen by God to give birth to our Lord and Savior Praise be to God, but that is as far as it goes at least biblically. Moses and Noah and David and Abraham etc. were all chosen by God for a specific purpose as well. Moses was given fantastic praise by the Jews and they still do I think. He was doing the Will of God just like Mary. Neither of them wanted any praise they simply worshipped God and gave Him all the Glory.

She IS your mother by virtue of being his - or do you not really believe that he is your brother in spite of abundant scripture telling you so in the plainest terms and the most literal sense of the word?

If you were truly in love with anyone would you not give the deepest honour and respect to their mother? Who not only gave life physically to your beloved, but ALSO raised them and helped form their character?

Or do see Jesus was a preprogrammed robot who learned absolutely NOTHING about obedience to God, about love and self-sacrifice, from the example of Mary?

If he learned nothing from her why does the Bible say he grew in grace - WHILE being obedient to her and Joseph??? Why did he say ‘I must be about my Father’s business’ when the very next thing he did was to subject himself in all obedience to Mary and Joseph for the next decade or two? It’s as plain as day that his father’s business, will and pleasure WAS to subject himself to Mary and learn from her, no? What other interpretation is there?

Before you all jump on me, I’m not at all talking about honouring the mother in a way that obscures or takes away from the Son. No-one who truly loves a man loses any of that love by also loving his mother - they only add to it. And no man who truly loves his mother, as Jesus did in a way none of us can comprehend, resents any amount of honour or respect that is accorded to her?

Even I, sinful, weak, petty and proud as I am, love my mother enough to be happy for any honour that is accorded to her, and would never consider anything done by way of promoting her as a lessening of myself.

How is it that people have such a wacked, superficial, ridiculously juvenile notion of familial love and honour and respect? And project their same blindness and pettiness onto the Son of the God who IS all self-giving love as well? It’s incomprehensible

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hold it!

There is ample scriptural evidence to support 2,000 years of Marian devotion, but don’t come in and ask us to answer based on scripture alone.

Here we have Irenaeus compared to the CCC
Many people don’t realize the extent of the RCC’s claims about Mary. For example, while many people are aware of doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, it seems that relatively few are aware of claims such as the following:

“By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity…This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 967, 969)

According to the RCC, Mary completely adhered to the Father’s will, following every prompting of the Holy Spirit. She was the spiritual mother of us all uninterruptedly, from the annunciation onward.

One wonders how such things could be true in light of the fact that Mary didn’t even understand a simple statement Jesus made about His own identity after living with Mary for twelve years (Luke 2:49-50). Apparently, she was following all of the Father’s will and every prompting of the Spirit, while she was the spiritual mother of all believers, yet, at the same time, she didn’t even understand what Jesus said in Luke 2:49. She also was among the kinsmen who thought Jesus was insane (Mark 3:20-35), and she didn’t honor Jesus as He should have been honored (Mark 6:3-4).

The church father Irenaeus doesn’t seem to have agreed with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Instead of seeing Mary as following all of the Father’s will and every prompting of the Spirit, he sees Mary as being rebuked by Jesus in John 2:4, since she was ignorant of what He was doing and was interfering with the Father’s will:

"With Him is nothing incomplete or out of due season, just as with the Father there is nothing incongruous. For all these things were foreknown by the Father; but the Son works them out at the proper time in perfect order and sequence. This was the reason why, when Mary was urging Him on to perform the wonderful miracle of the wine, and was desirous before the time to partake of the cup of emblematic significance, the Lord, checking her untimely haste, said, ‘Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come’ -waiting for that hour which was foreknown by the Father." (Against Heresies, 3:16:7)

 

[Mijoy2]

Wow, gimme a break! What we are taught? propaganda? c’mon, Here is what we are taught!!! Satan smiles any anytime and anyway anything (alcholol, sexual relations, television, work,even putting the ministry in front of the message!) is put between us and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, anything that takes our focus away from our Blessed Saviour.

Which of course rules out Blessed Mary who only draws us closer to her Son.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

This is a classic objection going way back. Here St. Augustine answers it:

"Stretching out his hand over his disples, the Lord Chist declared: Here are my mother and my brothers, anyone who does the will of my Father who sent me is my brother and my sister and my mother. I would urge you to ponder these words. Did the Virgin Mary, who believed by faith and conceived by faith, who was the chosen one from whom our Savior was born among men, who was created by Christ before Christ was created in her–did she not do the will of the Father? Indeed the blessed Mary certainly did the Father’s will, and so it was for her a greater thing to have been Christ’s disciple than to have been his mother, and she was more blessed in her discipleship than in her motherhood. Hers was the happiness of first bearing in her womb him whom she would obey as her master.

Please share where you got this from!

 

[4given]

The OP asked the question from the standpoint of the early reformers giving Mary proper honor. This is not the protestant case in the present. The question was directed to anyone who cared to answer. So why did the ealry reformers not say what protestants say now? Is it a different interpretation of scripture?

-D

Perhaps because they were still influenced by the church they they were coming out of and it’s teachings, who knows? But the Reformers weren’t infallible even if I do agree with what they did in protesting and leaving the CC. We can respect them but untimatley, our authority on the subject of Mary is Scripture, not the Reformers. Of course, I’m speaking of those of us who believe God’s word is the ultimate and final authority.

 

[dalcent]

Since the OP asks what’s the real reason PROTESTANTS reject Mary shouldn’t the Protestants here be able to respond according to what they believe? After all, if the OP wants to know why Protestants reject what he or she thinks they’re rejecting, they should be the ones to answer it sounds like to me. If he or she wants Protestant reasons, he or she might want some Protestant answers.

As a former Protestant with a Protestant wife, mother and family who object mightily to Mary, and express these concerns to me, I answered the question in the context in which it was asked.

Of course, we want to hear opinions from those who spiritually still reside in Geneva, Canterbury, and Nashville!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

She IS your mother by virtue of being his - or do you not really believe that he is your brother in spite of abundant scripture telling you so in the plainest terms and the most literal sense of the word?

Hi,
I have never thought of Jesus Christ as my brother. I think of Him as the Messiah, Lord of Lord and King of Kings. I actually have never heard anyone say they think of Jesus as their brother This is a first for me.

If he learned nothing from her why does the Bible say he grew in grace - WHILE being obedient to her and Joseph???

Why did he say ‘I must be about my Father’s business’ when the very next

 

[LilyM]

Here we have Irenaeus compared to the CCC
Many people don’t realize the extent of the RCC’s claims about Mary. For example, while many people are aware of doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, it seems that relatively few are aware of claims such as the following:

“By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity…This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 967, 969)

According to the RCC, Mary completely adhered to the Father’s will, following every prompting of the Holy Spirit. She was the spiritual mother of us all uninterruptedly, from the annunciation onward.

One wonders how such things could be true in light of the fact that Mary didn’t even understand a simple statement Jesus made about His own identity after living with Mary for twelve years (Luke 2:49-50). Apparently, she was following all of the Father’s will and every prompting of the Spirit, while she was the spiritual mother of all believers, yet, at the same time, she didn’t even understand what Jesus said in Luke 2:49. She also was among the kinsmen who thought Jesus was insane (Mark 3:20-35), and she didn’t honor Jesus as He should have been honored (Mark 6:3-4).

The church father Irenaeus doesn’t seem to have agreed with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Instead of seeing Mary as following all of the Father’s will and every prompting of the Spirit, he sees Mary as being rebuked by Jesus in John 2:4, since she was ignorant of what He was doing and was interfering with the Father’s will:

"With Him is nothing incomplete or out of due season, just as with the Father there is nothing incongruous. For all these things were foreknown by the Father; but the Son works them out at the proper time in perfect order and sequence. This was the reason why, when Mary was urging Him on to perform the wonderful miracle of the wine, and was desirous before the time to partake of the cup of emblematic significance, the Lord, checking her untimely haste, said, ‘Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come’ -waiting for that hour which was foreknown by the Father." (Against Heresies, 3:16:7)

Irenaeus doesn’t speak for the whole church - or nearly the whole church - in the way the Catechism does. Certainly we’ve had 1700 or 1800 years of studying about Mary to deepen our understanding of her role, as well, since Irenaeus’ time.

As for the incident in the Temple - well it’s certain that Mary and Joseph knew that Jesus was the son of God, no? Since an angel told them as much? Shepherds and wise men don’t worship just an ordinary boy either, come to think of it. Clearly, at the wedding of Cana, Mary wouldn’t have requested the miracle if she’d thought he COULDN’T do it. So she knew plenty.

Simply that, being human as Mary and Joseph were, there were details and nuances that escaped them that the Son of God understood at least a little better. For example, we can see now that in his going to Jerusalem with them to celebrate Passover, being lost for three days and then restored, he was prefiguring his Last Supper, death, three days in the tomb, and resurrection. Th