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planten
Guest
I have seen the bibleOT. There is much detail about Noah and the Flood. Please see the chapter 6, NIV.
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wwolverine
Guest
Thanks Planten,
There is one thing that you have clarified, and that is Quran cannot be understood on its own without having the Holy Bible and the Hadiths.
Well coming back to the question you are still not clear with the answer. Just give an affirmative answer to the there questions posed and than lets move from there. But from Islamic point of view withut bringing in it the Holy Bible.
Thanks
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planten
Guest
That is not true. Quran is quite independent. It does not depend on any other source, not even on Hadith. But hadith helps to understand the Quran.
Now your argument becomes weak for many reasons. No. 1, because Quran discusses Noah, or Abraham. Noah and Abraham are described in the bibleOT long before Quran and bibleNT. So if Quran will say anything about Abraham, even just his name, you will say “See, Quran cannot be understood without bibleOT.”
I can say the same thing about your bibleNT. Can it be understood without the bibleOT?? I hope not.
The other important reason. No.2: Quran does not discuss useless matters. It is more on the spiritual and essential sides. If you ask me “What was the name of Noah’s father?” and I have to reply it from Quran, I cannot do that. Then again you will announce that Quran cannot be understood without the bible.
We know many unnecessary things have been described in the bibleOT. Just note the building of the Jewish house of God by King Soloman and the detail of the size of pillars and the size and shape and color of the curtains etc, was it all necessary to be described.
It could only be necessary for the Jews because they had been attacked (destroyed) many times and their temple also destroyed. If they have to make it all up anew, the information of their book could be useful to them. Otherwise it has not value to mankind.
You are asking some specific questions relating to the flood at the time of Noah. I will see those questions again. I will try to understand if the questions are very important for the entire mankind to know their answers. If I find that they are very important then I will try to answer thos equestions. Otherwise you will understand and excuse me. Thanks.
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hamba2han
Guest
Here are passages from the translation of the Qur’an concerning the mission of Prophet Nuh (pbuh):
Prophet Nuh (as) was Sent to His People as a Messenger
We sent Nuh to his people and he said, ‘My people, worship Allah! You have no other god than Him. I fear for you the punishment of a dreadful Day.’ (Surah al-A’raf, 59)
The Prophet Nuh (as) Calls His People to Religion
We sent Nuh to his people: ‘I am a clear warner to you. Worship none but Allah. I fear for you the punishment of a painful day.’ (Surah Hud, 25-26)
We sent Nuh to his people: ‘Warn your people before a painful punishment comes to them.’ (Surah Nuh, 1)
We sent Nuh to his people and he said, ‘My people, worship Allah. You have no god other than Him. So will you not guard against evil?’ (Surah al-Mu’minun, 23)
We sent Nuh to his people and he remained among them for fifty short of a thousand years; yet the Flood engulfed them while they were wrongdoers. (Surah al-'Ankabut, 14)
The people of Nuh denied the Messengers. When their brother Nuh said to them, ‘Will you not guard against evil? I am a faithful Messenger to you so have fear of Allah and obey me. I do not ask you for any wage for it. My wage is the responsibility of no one but the Lord of all the worlds. So have fear of Allah and obey me.’ (Surah ash-Shu’ara’, 105-110)
The Attitude of Unbelievers towards the Prophet Nuh (as)
They said, ‘Why should we believe you when the vilest people follow you?’ He said, ‘What do I know about what they have been doing? Their reckoning is the concern of my Lord alone if you were but aware. I am not going to chase away the believers. I am only a clear warner.’ (Surah ash-Shu’ara’, 111-115)
The ruling circle of those of his people who were disbelievers said, ‘This is nothing but a human being like yourselves who simply wants to gain ascendancy over you. If Allah had wanted He would have sent angels down. We never heard of anything like this among our ancestors, the earlier peoples. He is nothing but a man possessed so wait a while and see what happens to him.’ (Surah al-Mu’minun, 24-25)
They said, ‘Nuh, if you do not desist you will be stoned.’ (Surah ash-Shu’ara’, 116)
The Prophet Nuh’s (as) Perseverance in Communicating Religion
He said, ‘My people, I am a clear warner to you. Worship Allah, have fear of Him and obey me. He will forgive you your wrong actions and defer you until a specified time. When Allah’s time comes it cannot be deferred, if you only knew.’ He said, ‘My Lord, I have called my people night and day but my calling has only made them more evasive. Indeed, every time I called them to Your forgiveness, they put their fingers in their ears, wrapped themselves up in their clothes and were overweeningly arrogant. Then I called them openly. Then I addressed them publicly and addressed them privately. I said, “Ask forgiveness of your Lord.Truly He is Endlessly Forgiving. He will send heaven down on you in abundant rain and reinforce you with more wealth and sons, and grant you gardens and grant you waterways. What is the matter with you that you do not hope for honour from Allah, when He created you by successive stages? Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers, and placed the moon as a light in them and made the sun a blazing lamp? Allah caused you to grow from the earth then will return you to it and bring you out again. Allah has spread the earth out as a carpet for you so that you could use its wide valleys as roadways.”’ (Surah Nuh, 2-20)
Prophet Nuh (as) was Sent to His People as a Messenger
We sent Nuh to his people and he said, ‘My people, worship Allah! You have no other god than Him. I fear for you the punishment of a dreadful Day.’ (Surah al-A’raf, 59)
The Prophet Nuh (as) Calls His People to Religion
We sent Nuh to his people: ‘I am a clear warner to you. Worship none but Allah. I fear for you the punishment of a painful day.’ (Surah Hud, 25-26)
We sent Nuh to his people: ‘Warn your people before a painful punishment comes to them.’ (Surah Nuh, 1)
We sent Nuh to his people and he said, ‘My people, worship Allah. You have no god other than Him. So will you not guard against evil?’ (Surah al-Mu’minun, 23)
We sent Nuh to his people and he remained among them for fifty short of a thousand years; yet the Flood engulfed them while they were wrongdoers. (Surah al-'Ankabut, 14)
The people of Nuh denied the Messengers. When their brother Nuh said to them, ‘Will you not guard against evil? I am a faithful Messenger to you so have fear of Allah and obey me. I do not ask you for any wage for it. My wage is the responsibility of no one but the Lord of all the worlds. So have fear of Allah and obey me.’ (Surah ash-Shu’ara’, 105-110)
The Attitude of Unbelievers towards the Prophet Nuh (as)
They said, ‘Why should we believe you when the vilest people follow you?’ He said, ‘What do I know about what they have been doing? Their reckoning is the concern of my Lord alone if you were but aware. I am not going to chase away the believers. I am only a clear warner.’ (Surah ash-Shu’ara’, 111-115)
The ruling circle of those of his people who were disbelievers said, ‘This is nothing but a human being like yourselves who simply wants to gain ascendancy over you. If Allah had wanted He would have sent angels down. We never heard of anything like this among our ancestors, the earlier peoples. He is nothing but a man possessed so wait a while and see what happens to him.’ (Surah al-Mu’minun, 24-25)
They said, ‘Nuh, if you do not desist you will be stoned.’ (Surah ash-Shu’ara’, 116)
The Prophet Nuh’s (as) Perseverance in Communicating Religion
He said, ‘My people, I am a clear warner to you. Worship Allah, have fear of Him and obey me. He will forgive you your wrong actions and defer you until a specified time. When Allah’s time comes it cannot be deferred, if you only knew.’ He said, ‘My Lord, I have called my people night and day but my calling has only made them more evasive. Indeed, every time I called them to Your forgiveness, they put their fingers in their ears, wrapped themselves up in their clothes and were overweeningly arrogant. Then I called them openly. Then I addressed them publicly and addressed them privately. I said, “Ask forgiveness of your Lord.Truly He is Endlessly Forgiving. He will send heaven down on you in abundant rain and reinforce you with more wealth and sons, and grant you gardens and grant you waterways. What is the matter with you that you do not hope for honour from Allah, when He created you by successive stages? Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers, and placed the moon as a light in them and made the sun a blazing lamp? Allah caused you to grow from the earth then will return you to it and bring you out again. Allah has spread the earth out as a carpet for you so that you could use its wide valleys as roadways.”’ (Surah Nuh, 2-20)
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hamba2han
Guest
The Prophet Nuh’s (as) Attitude Towards His People
The ruling circle of those of his people who were disbelievers said, ‘We do not see you as anything but a human being like ourselves. We do not see anyone following you but the lowest of us, unthinkingly. We do not see you as superior to us. On the contrary, we consider you to be liars.’ He said, ‘My people! What do you think? If I were to have clear evidence from my Lord and He had given me a mercy direct from Him, but you were blind to it, could we force it on you if you were unwilling? My people! I do not ask you for any wealth for it. My wage is the responsibility of Allah alone. I will not chase away those who believe. They are surely going to meet their Lord. However, I see you as ignorant people. My people! Who would help me against Allah if I did drive them away? So will you not pay heed? I do not say to you that I possess the treasuries of Allah; nor do I know the Unseen; nor do I say that I am an angel; nor do I say to those who are vile in your eyes that Allah will not give them any good. Allah knows best what is in their hearts. If I did, I would certainly be one of the wrongdoers.’ (Surah Hud, 27-31)
The ruling circle of his people said, ‘We see you in flagrant error.’ He said, ‘My people, I am not in error at all but rather am a Messenger from the Lord of all the worlds, transmitting my Lord’s Message to you and giving you good counsel, and I know from Allah what you do not know. Or are you astonished that a reminder should come to you from your Lord by way of a man among you, to warn you and make you guard against evil so that hopefully you will gain mercy?’ (Surat al-A’raf, 60-63)
They said, ‘Nuh, you have argued with us and argued much so bring us what you have promised us if you are telling the truth.’ He said, ‘Allah will bring it to you if He wills and you will not be able to prevent it. My counsel will not benefit you, for all my desire to counsel you, if Allah desires to lead you into error. He is your Lord and you will return to Him.’ (Surah Hud, 32-34)
Recite to them the story of Nuh when he said to his people, 'My people, if my standing here and reminding you of Allah’s Signs has become too much for you to bear, know that I have put my trust in Allah. So decide, you and your gods, on what you want to do and be open about it. Do with me whatever you decide and do not keep me waiting. (Surah Yunus, 71)
It was revealed to Nuh: 'None of your people are going to believe except for those who already believe, so do not be distressed at what they do. (Surah Hud, 36)
The Destruction of the People of Nuh: Building the Ark
We revealed to him: 'Build the Ship under Our supervision and as We reveal. When Our command comes and water bubbles up from the earth, load into it a pair of every species, and your family - except for those among them against whom the word has already gone ahead. And do not address Me concerning those who do wrong. They shall be drowned. (Surat al-Mu’minun, 27)
Build the Ark under Our supervision and as We reveal and do not address Me concerning the wrongdoers. They shall be drowned.’ He began to build the Ark and every time some nobles of his people passed him by, they ridiculed him. He said, ‘Though you ridicule us now, we will certainly ridicule you as you do us. You will soon know who will receive a punishment which disgraces him and find unleashed against himself an everlasting punishment.’ (Surah Hud, 37-39)
The Embarkation of Believers in the Ark
So when Our command came, and water bubbled up from the earth, We said, ‘Load into it a pair of every species, and your family - except for those against whom the Word was preordained - and all who believe.’ But those who believed with him were only few. He said, ‘Embark in it. In the name of Allah be its voyage and its landing! Truly my Lord is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’ (Surah Hud 40-41)
The Flood
So We opened the gates of heaven with torrential water and made the earth burst forth with gushing springs. And the waters met together in a way which was decreed. We bore him on a planked and well-caulked ship, which ran before Our eyes -a reward for him who had been rejected. (Surat al-Qamar, 11-14)
The Prophet Nuh’s (as) Talk with His Son
It sailed with them through mountainous waves, and Nuh called out to his son, who had kept himself apart, ‘My son! Come on board with us. Do not stay with the disbelievers!’ He said, ‘I will take refuge on a mountain; It will protect me from the flood.’ He said, ‘There is no protection from Allah’s command today except for those He has mercy on.’ The waves surged in between them and he was among the drowned. (Surah Hud, 42-43)
The ruling circle of those of his people who were disbelievers said, ‘We do not see you as anything but a human being like ourselves. We do not see anyone following you but the lowest of us, unthinkingly. We do not see you as superior to us. On the contrary, we consider you to be liars.’ He said, ‘My people! What do you think? If I were to have clear evidence from my Lord and He had given me a mercy direct from Him, but you were blind to it, could we force it on you if you were unwilling? My people! I do not ask you for any wealth for it. My wage is the responsibility of Allah alone. I will not chase away those who believe. They are surely going to meet their Lord. However, I see you as ignorant people. My people! Who would help me against Allah if I did drive them away? So will you not pay heed? I do not say to you that I possess the treasuries of Allah; nor do I know the Unseen; nor do I say that I am an angel; nor do I say to those who are vile in your eyes that Allah will not give them any good. Allah knows best what is in their hearts. If I did, I would certainly be one of the wrongdoers.’ (Surah Hud, 27-31)
The ruling circle of his people said, ‘We see you in flagrant error.’ He said, ‘My people, I am not in error at all but rather am a Messenger from the Lord of all the worlds, transmitting my Lord’s Message to you and giving you good counsel, and I know from Allah what you do not know. Or are you astonished that a reminder should come to you from your Lord by way of a man among you, to warn you and make you guard against evil so that hopefully you will gain mercy?’ (Surat al-A’raf, 60-63)
They said, ‘Nuh, you have argued with us and argued much so bring us what you have promised us if you are telling the truth.’ He said, ‘Allah will bring it to you if He wills and you will not be able to prevent it. My counsel will not benefit you, for all my desire to counsel you, if Allah desires to lead you into error. He is your Lord and you will return to Him.’ (Surah Hud, 32-34)
Recite to them the story of Nuh when he said to his people, 'My people, if my standing here and reminding you of Allah’s Signs has become too much for you to bear, know that I have put my trust in Allah. So decide, you and your gods, on what you want to do and be open about it. Do with me whatever you decide and do not keep me waiting. (Surah Yunus, 71)
It was revealed to Nuh: 'None of your people are going to believe except for those who already believe, so do not be distressed at what they do. (Surah Hud, 36)
The Destruction of the People of Nuh: Building the Ark
We revealed to him: 'Build the Ship under Our supervision and as We reveal. When Our command comes and water bubbles up from the earth, load into it a pair of every species, and your family - except for those among them against whom the word has already gone ahead. And do not address Me concerning those who do wrong. They shall be drowned. (Surat al-Mu’minun, 27)
Build the Ark under Our supervision and as We reveal and do not address Me concerning the wrongdoers. They shall be drowned.’ He began to build the Ark and every time some nobles of his people passed him by, they ridiculed him. He said, ‘Though you ridicule us now, we will certainly ridicule you as you do us. You will soon know who will receive a punishment which disgraces him and find unleashed against himself an everlasting punishment.’ (Surah Hud, 37-39)
The Embarkation of Believers in the Ark
So when Our command came, and water bubbled up from the earth, We said, ‘Load into it a pair of every species, and your family - except for those against whom the Word was preordained - and all who believe.’ But those who believed with him were only few. He said, ‘Embark in it. In the name of Allah be its voyage and its landing! Truly my Lord is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’ (Surah Hud 40-41)
The Flood
So We opened the gates of heaven with torrential water and made the earth burst forth with gushing springs. And the waters met together in a way which was decreed. We bore him on a planked and well-caulked ship, which ran before Our eyes -a reward for him who had been rejected. (Surat al-Qamar, 11-14)
The Prophet Nuh’s (as) Talk with His Son
It sailed with them through mountainous waves, and Nuh called out to his son, who had kept himself apart, ‘My son! Come on board with us. Do not stay with the disbelievers!’ He said, ‘I will take refuge on a mountain; It will protect me from the flood.’ He said, ‘There is no protection from Allah’s command today except for those He has mercy on.’ The waves surged in between them and he was among the drowned. (Surah Hud, 42-43)
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exoflare
Guest
Have you been close friends with any Muslims IRL? I’ve found that the stereotypes of Christians he always mentions are shared almost universally among Muslims. Most of them aren’t very vocal about it, though, unless they become comfortable enough around you and it accidentally slips out or they’re talking to fellow Muslims OR sometimes when they’re on an apologetics spiel.
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hamba2han
Guest
The Advice of Allah to the Prophet Nuh (as)
Nuh called out to his Lord and said, ‘My Lord, my son is one of my family and Your promise is surely the truth and You are the Justest of Judges.’ He said, ‘Nuh, he is definitely not of your family. He is someone whose action was not righteous. Do not, therefore, ask Me for something about which you have no knowledge. I admonish you lest you should be among the ignorant.’ He said, ‘My Lord, I seek refuge with You from asking You for anything about which I have no knowledge. If You do not forgive me and have mercy on me, I will be among the lost.’ (Surah Hud, 45-47)
The End of The Flood
It was said, ‘Earth, swallow up your water!’ and, ‘Heaven, hold back your rain!’ And the water subsided and the affair was concluded and the Ark came to land on al-Judi. And it was said, ‘Away with the people of the wrongdoers!’ (Surah Hud, 44)
The Rescue of the Believers who were in the Ark
It was said, ‘Nuh, descend with peace from Us and with blessings on you and on the nations which will issue from those who are with you. But there are nations to whom we will give enjoyment and then a painful punishment from Us will afflict them.’ (Surah Hud, 48)
So We rescued him and those with him in the loaded ship. (Surat ash-Shu’ara’, 119)
We rescued him and the occupants of the Ark and made that into a Sign for all the worlds. (Surat al-'Ankabut, 15)
Nuh called out to Us and what an excellent Responder We are! We rescued him and his family from the terrible plight and made his descendants the survivors; and We left the later people to say of him: ‘Peace be upon Nuh among all beings!’ (Surat as-Saffat, 75-79)
And say: “My Lord, land me in a blessed landing-place. You are the best Bringer to Land.”’ There are Signs in that. We are always putting people to the test. Then We raised up another generation after them. (Surat al-Mu’minun, 29-31)
And so then, as you can see for yourself, the Qur’an deals only with REALLY meaningful matters which are beneficial to the faith of the believers when telling about the stories of the Prophets (peace be upon them all).
Nuh called out to his Lord and said, ‘My Lord, my son is one of my family and Your promise is surely the truth and You are the Justest of Judges.’ He said, ‘Nuh, he is definitely not of your family. He is someone whose action was not righteous. Do not, therefore, ask Me for something about which you have no knowledge. I admonish you lest you should be among the ignorant.’ He said, ‘My Lord, I seek refuge with You from asking You for anything about which I have no knowledge. If You do not forgive me and have mercy on me, I will be among the lost.’ (Surah Hud, 45-47)
The End of The Flood
It was said, ‘Earth, swallow up your water!’ and, ‘Heaven, hold back your rain!’ And the water subsided and the affair was concluded and the Ark came to land on al-Judi. And it was said, ‘Away with the people of the wrongdoers!’ (Surah Hud, 44)
The Rescue of the Believers who were in the Ark
It was said, ‘Nuh, descend with peace from Us and with blessings on you and on the nations which will issue from those who are with you. But there are nations to whom we will give enjoyment and then a painful punishment from Us will afflict them.’ (Surah Hud, 48)
So We rescued him and those with him in the loaded ship. (Surat ash-Shu’ara’, 119)
We rescued him and the occupants of the Ark and made that into a Sign for all the worlds. (Surat al-'Ankabut, 15)
Nuh called out to Us and what an excellent Responder We are! We rescued him and his family from the terrible plight and made his descendants the survivors; and We left the later people to say of him: ‘Peace be upon Nuh among all beings!’ (Surat as-Saffat, 75-79)
And say: “My Lord, land me in a blessed landing-place. You are the best Bringer to Land.”’ There are Signs in that. We are always putting people to the test. Then We raised up another generation after them. (Surat al-Mu’minun, 29-31)
And so then, as you can see for yourself, the Qur’an deals only with REALLY meaningful matters which are beneficial to the faith of the believers when telling about the stories of the Prophets (peace be upon them all).
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exoflare
Guest
You bring up a good point. I said Muslims in general but it would be better if I specified the really devout ones.
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dzheremi
Guest
Wow. That is the first, and I’d bet the only time, that Hamba2han, or anything s/he does, has been described as “sly”. Generally, Hamba’s posts are about as skilled as a three year old’s scribbles and about as crafty as a used car salesman trying to pass off a rusted VW bug as a Ferrari.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
It’s not that sly, really. Hamba blatantly admitted it once. I’m amazed he hasn’t been banned for it yet.
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hamba2han
Guest
This is really off-topic but since it has been brought up, on more than one occasion by my count, then perhaps a brief explanation might be in order.
You see although I was born into a Muslim family, I was not really what would be called a ‘practicing Muslim’ in my earlier years… and I certainly am not proud to admit this.
For me, the realization to the real Truth of Islam came only later in life and so I suppose I could be considered a “born-again Muslim” although I would hasten to add that this term does not actually exist in Islam.
And so, when discussing with non-Muslims about faith in general and Islam in particular, I would say that I really do not need to put myself in their shoes so to speak, because from my own personal experience in life, I think that I have a pretty good idea of why they would say the things that they say about Islam.
Bottom line is that I am a pretty understanding guy when it comes to understanding the feelings of non-Muslims.
However, when it comes to tolerance, I would say that tolerance in faith is really the sole prerogative of the One Lord of the Universe and this means that the tolerance of Muslims needs to be guided by the level and scope of tolerance as stipulated in the Qur’an and the ahadith.
Non-Muslims should therefore have not much to fear from the teachings of Islam… at least not while they are still in this world.
You see although I was born into a Muslim family, I was not really what would be called a ‘practicing Muslim’ in my earlier years… and I certainly am not proud to admit this.
For me, the realization to the real Truth of Islam came only later in life and so I suppose I could be considered a “born-again Muslim” although I would hasten to add that this term does not actually exist in Islam.
And so, when discussing with non-Muslims about faith in general and Islam in particular, I would say that I really do not need to put myself in their shoes so to speak, because from my own personal experience in life, I think that I have a pretty good idea of why they would say the things that they say about Islam.
Bottom line is that I am a pretty understanding guy when it comes to understanding the feelings of non-Muslims.
However, when it comes to tolerance, I would say that tolerance in faith is really the sole prerogative of the One Lord of the Universe and this means that the tolerance of Muslims needs to be guided by the level and scope of tolerance as stipulated in the Qur’an and the ahadith.
Non-Muslims should therefore have not much to fear from the teachings of Islam… at least not while they are still in this world.
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wwolverine
Guest
I am a big fan of Tintin comics, In these comics there is a character called Professor Calculus who is very intelligent ( i cant say the same of you), but deaf, so every time someone says something he will reply in negative but say the same thing. Its quite fun.
Now coming to my answer, i said, quran cannot be understood without hadiths and Holy Bible, and what do you say? your exact words
That is not true. Quran is quite independent. It does not depend on any other source, not even on Hadith. But hadith helps to understand the Quran.
Now if you say besides mohammed all other prophet down the line are no more important, than your basic foundation is too weak to withstand. Its like having a building with the weakest foundation. Well that is up to you. For us Right from the book of Genesis till the last book in the Holy Bible are all important, and if you ever enter any church anywhere, you will find that the readings are from both the OT and NT, and everyday. In a years time we complete the Whole Bible.
If you dont know the answer to my questions, than its fine with me or us Christians, that makes us know that quran is not as complete as is being said by muslems.
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wwolverine
Guest
Hello Hamba,
Your barging in the discussion made me think what would happen to you on soccer field if you just barged in without knowing how to play the game, maybe end up with broken legs?
well if you you have gone thur this thread, than you will see that the quran chapter you have brought here, was already produced by Jharek on the first page itself. so your bringing it again means you just barged in. Well anyway,
Just answer my three questions, and I will consider you are well versed in your books more better than Planten.
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mshaikh0218
Guest
I Alwayz talk short and informative. Its better for one to greet first, its called manner no matter you are stranger or not.
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wwolverine
Guest
It seems most of our friends in discussion have given up as they do not have any suitable answer. Which leaves me to the conclusion, that the stories of prophets in the quran are just heard by mohammed some place or the other on his frequent trips as merchant. And he has compiled them in the book called Quran.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I know some (such as Mohammad breaking the statues) are found in the midrash and other Jewish traditions. Some, such as the idea that Lot was a prophet, had to have simply been made up.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
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