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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Kind of like how we’ve never seen Christianity used to justify anti-Semitism or racism. Oh wait…
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spina1953
Guest
Hi: I understand it is the old story of violence that many Muslems claim. However, the catholic Church teaches to use violence in order to convert or to force anyone to become Muslem nor does it teach that it is ok and right to kill in the name of God or religion. The NT does not so far as I have been able to read does not teach any violence or any sort not does it teach to use violence or any other means other than peaceful to convert.
The Koran does teach this and many other things contrary to what the NT teaches concerning violence towards others no matter what their religious beliefs are or are not.
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clintonm
Guest
To use negative actions of one group to explain away the actions of a separate group is not a sound argumentative strategy. I would counter by saying that nowhere in scripture are Christians commanded by Jesus to fight the non-believers until they convert, willingly submit to the jizya or die.
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tomarin
Guest
Just as an intellectual exercise, I wonder would it be possible to remove the essentialism from this question which pops up with mind-numbing frequency on this board, by changing it slightly to read “do Muslims misrepresent their religion for public consumption for nefarious reasons” as I think that is what the people who start these threads want to discuss.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
If Christianity is forced on someone from the outside, it is not Christianity.
If the “law” of Christianity doesn’t come from the inside but comes from the outside, it is not Christianity.
If Christianity is the “law of the land” as in Christianity being the government, than it is not Christianity.
God forces Himself on no one, we are NOT to force God or anyone’s conception of God on anyone, therefore, “Christianity being the “law of the land”” is not even close to “what we are supposed to ultimately strive for”.
Christianity is NOT a “morality system”, it is a relationship between God and God’s Creation, it was God’s decision to become One of us in the Incarnation, wasn’t it?
Isn’t the Incarnation the most basic of what Christianity is about?
One could even say that Jesus, True God and True Man, Is the liaison between God and Man.
One could even say that in the nuclear family of man, Jesus Is the Fusion of God and Man.
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
Heresy, yes, but hardly Christian.
Protestantism is a schism, not exactly a heresy.
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onenow1
Guest
Hi
They want it both ways, convert and you will have peace, or else we will punish you as a blasphemer immediately, usually your head.
God Bless
onenow1
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spina1953
Guest
One thing about Islam is that you can not convert to any other religion especially Hebrew or Christianity without being killed by any Muslem for converting from Islam.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Exactly. The only thing the “well Islam did this bad thing or Muslims do this bad thing” argument does is prompt the “well Christianity did this bad thing or Christians do this bad thing” response. We need to stop being lazy when presenting arguments against Islam. The teachings about the use of violence in Islam are wrong because they run contrary to X, Y, and Z teachings in Judaism and Christianity and because they are not internally consistent with A, B, and C teachings in Islam. Rather hard to counter that with “well Christians did this or that bad thing to this particular group.”
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clintonm
Guest
The issue with making that type of claim to a Muslim is their response would be that the Koran has a built in answer in that they are allowed to replace an old revelation with a new one that is “better”. So the early teachings where Muslims are told to be peaceful was abrogated by a later one saying defensive war was okay then an even later one that says “kill them all and let Allah sort it out”, to paraphrase just a bit. They do not see that as inconsistent but a natural flow of theology. There is a cognitive dissonance that allows them to believe the Koran is eternal, unchanging and logical and that it can be changed and revised as time passes.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Ah, so I’m using the negative actions of Christians to explain away the negative actions of Muslims? Silly me. I thought I was using the negative action of Christians to counter the rather shallow argument put forth that we wouldn’t see bad actions among the believers of the “religion of peace.” Given the simplistic criteria put forth, Christianity also wouldn’t qualify as a “religion of peace.”
Here’s the claim put forth- “it were truly a religion of peace there would not be this violence and killing going on in the name of God and religion”
Mind telling me how those bad actions I cited don’t somehow invalidate Christianity under the criteria set forth in the claim? Or was I not supposed to engage in any form of critical thinking to ensure that the claim and the criteria it puts forth aren’t so shallow and simplistic as to force a conclusion?
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
You’re working under the false assumptions that-
-Christianity is not a morality system.
-it can only be a “relationship between God and God’s Creation” or a morality system.
-Christianity teaches one can not force a just system or just actions on others.
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spina1953
Guest
Let me be clear, I think that the Koran does teach to use violence to convert, subject, lie to non-Muslims etc. In Christianity the NT does not teach any such thing. The Apostles and those who followed them did not use violence to convert anyone, just as Jesus did not force anyone to believe in Him.
Yes, there has been those Christians who have used violence in order to convert those who were not Christians. However, the Catholic Church has never taught that it is ok to kill, or use violence in order to convert anyone to be Christian. There has been wars over religion and what to believe, but so far as I have read in the NT there is nothing that says that Christians are to use force or violence to make people believe, or to convert people into the Christian religion.
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clintonm
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If you were trying to use that as a show of an invalid argument then we are in agreement. If you were saying it as a means of justification then I do not agree.
And I will gladly tell you why those actions do not invalidate Christianity. Jesus commands us to love our enemy, love our neighbor and turn the other cheek. We are commanded to evangilize and make converts of all nations by sharing with them the Gospel. Jesus also states that he is the means to get to heaven. So the actions of a violent Christian, or a Christian that forces a religion on another through force is in complete violation to the commands of Jesus.
The Koran, and Muhammad, teach that the followers of the book (Christians) are lower than dogs and should be attacked when encountered until they convert, willingly submit the the jizya or die. It also says that the only sure way to get to paradise is to kill the non-believer and die fighting the non-believer. So the actions of a violent Muslim is entirely acceptable within their framework.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
-I was just using it to show a faulty argument (it’s not invalid, just too generalized and simplistic).
-A Christian who dies fighting for his/her faith is also “assured” paradise. The difference here (and I’m assuming because my knowledge of what Islam teaches about this is limited) is that Islam and Christianity differ on what is considered just in regards to the fighting.
-Assuming that your claim is correct regarding “lower than dogs and should be attacked when encountered until they convert,” there is an internal conflict within Islam regarding what behavior toward non-believers and “People of the Book” is allowed.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
And that’s on them. We aren’t responsible for making someone believe X, we are responsible for making sure they have all the information and tools required for them to eventually realize X and willfully accept or reject it. Or put another way- Forcing water down the horse’s mouth isn’t our job, making sure the horse knows about the water, can easily get the water, and that we will help it drink the water if needs the help is.
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clintonm
Guest
As I stated earlier, there is a process in Islam called abrogation, in which a contradictory teaching supersedes an earlier teaching. Muslims do not view that as a conflict or it being inconsistent. It is difficult for a Christian mind to understand because our view of the eternal word of God is that it is unchanging at all times. While we recognize that Islam understand the first principle of God (That there is only one God and he is the merciful creator) that does not mean they have a full understanding of God.
While I am currently at work, if you wish I can provide the specific areas in the Koran that explain the violence towards non-muslims and the contempt they hold for Jews and Christians. Though just read Sura 9 and you will have a better understanding of what I am talking about.
While I am currently at work, if you wish I can provide the specific areas in the Koran that explain the violence towards non-muslims and the contempt they hold for Jews and Christians. Though just read Sura 9 and you will have a better understanding of what I am talking about.
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clintonm
Guest
I’m with you there. They must accept or reject the truth on their own without anybody trying to force them to do anything. I am not advocating forcing a Muslim to become Christian, I was just explaining how they explain away their own internal discrepencies. As to making sure they have access to “water”, they are commanded in the Koran to read the Gospel and compare the two because if it states that if the Koran is truly the word of God it will agree with the Gospels. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how anybody can reconcile the two.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
I can’t either (reconcile the two). I’m assuming this is where the teachings concerning the Gospel being corrupted comes in (but, this begs the question as to why they would be asked to compare the two in the first place).
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spina1953
Guest
I wonder where you got the idea that a Christian who dies fighting for his faith is assured of paradise? I have never saw that in the NT nor have I ever heard that being taught by the Catholic Church. There is nothing in the NT where Jesus said that it was OK to die fighting for ones faith nor that the Apostles have taught that so far as I know and understand Catholic Church teachings. So Please if you can show me where it say what you claim?
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