What is the use of good works if Jesus Died for us?

[teachccd]

There is a difference between saying you have faith and actually having faith. If he actually had faith, he wouldn’t continue to kill people. I want to point out that if he had killed 100 women and then somehow came to faith in God and stopped killing and truly repented of what he had done, he could have been saved. There is no sin that is too great that God can’t forgvie it. But in your example you say he will keep on killing; that means he doesn’t actually have faith. How can someone believe that Jesus loved us so much that He was willing to die for us and that He forgives all our sins, but still not follow Jesus’ example and care about other people the way He cared about us. If someone has true faith, that faith will produce good works. But the good works are not needed to get into heaven.

What if someone came to faith on their deathbed. They had no time to do any good works, but they will still be saved because they have true faith.

You just re-worded my post # 9. So we now agree???

 

[teachccd]

What if someone came to faith on their deathbed. They had no time to do any good works, but they will still be saved because they have true faith.

God never requires more from us than what we can do. So if one were to come to faith on his or her deathbed then they would be judged as such. But if you have one day left then you must take up your cross and follow Jesus. And that means to love as He loves. If you take issue with that then you take issue with Christ. He said that, I didn’t. Good works of love is a filled faith and only a filled faith saves. An empty faith is dead. Our good friend James tells you all about that in his letter. (Chapter 2)

 

[po18guy]

There is a difference between saying you have faith and actually having faith. If he actually had faith, he wouldn’t continue to kill people. I want to point out that if he had killed 100 women and then somehow came to faith in God and stopped killing and truly repented of what he had done, he could have been saved. There is no sin that is too great that God can’t forgvie it. But in your example you say he will keep on killing; that means he doesn’t actually have faith. How can someone believe that Jesus loved us so much that He was willing to die for us and that He forgives all our sins, but still not follow Jesus’ example and care about other people the way He cared about us. If someone has true faith, that faith will produce good works. But the good works are not needed to get into heaven.

The killer has absolute faith! He does nothing about it, because he is powerless against sin. But, didn’t Jesus live and die for him? Repentance is works. Self-control is works. Bible reading is works. Church attendance is works. The Golden Rule is works. He needs none of that to get to heaven, since they’re all works, and God only looks at Jesus’ life right? The killer has absolute faith! How can he NOT go to Heaven?

What if someone came to faith on their deathbed. They had no time to do any good works, but they will still be saved because they have true faith.

100% Catholic teaching! Welcome! The Baptism of Desire. This is not the "normative means of salvation, it is but one example of God’s infinite grace.

What about Revelation? It still translates as “done”???

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[angie08]

What about James 2:17 and James 2:26?? Can you comment on just those passages without skipping around? What exactly is James saying in those passages?? James does not agree that “In order to have faith, there is no action on our part involved”. Was James a Catholic who was dissenting from Protestantism? This is not an attack now so don’t go there. This is a legitimate question…

I completely agree with those passages that say that faith without works is dead. If someone has true faith, they will want to do good works to show praise and thanks to God who first loved us. However, this is not the same as saying that good works are needed to get to heaven. There is a difference between true faith producing good works and good works needed to earn your way to heaven.

 

[Teflon93]

I completely agree with those passages that say that faith without works is dead. If someone has true faith, they will want to do good works to show praise and thanks to God who first loved us. However, this is not the same as saying that good works are needed to get to heaven. There is a difference between true faith producing good works and good works needed to earn your way to heaven.

You may have missed this:

1: My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

2: For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3: And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5: Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6: But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7: Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8: If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11: For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12: So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13: For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James is quite a bit more emphatic on the relationship of works to salvation than you’re allowing.

See also the Scripture I posted above, which bears out James’ point.

I’m afraid there’s no getting around James 2:24: “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

 

[NotWorthy]

I completely agree with those passages that say that faith without works is dead. If someone has true faith, they will want to do good works to show praise and thanks to God who first loved us. However, this is not the same as saying that good works are needed to get to heaven. There is a difference between true faith producing good works and good works needed to earn your way to heaven.

Angie, are you saying that our Works have no bearing on whether we get to heaven or not?!? Catholics will agree that our works don’t EARN our ticket to heaven, but they are “part of the deal” that Jesus set up with His Church. Examine real closely the parable of the Sheep and the Goats:

`Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food,

They inherited the kingdom **FOR **doing the good works.

Jesus says if you do things such as this, you will be rewarded in heaven. The act itself doesn’t earn the reward. The reward simply fulfills the Promise of Christ.

 

[narnia59]

I completely agree with those passages that say that faith without works is dead. If someone has true faith, they will want to do good works to show praise and thanks to God who first loved us. However, this is not the same as saying that good works are needed to get to heaven. There is a difference between true faith producing good works and good works needed to earn your way to heaven.

You seem to be of the opinion that if someone says works are necessary to get to heaven, they therefore believe that they ‘earn’ heaven by their works.

If that’s the case, one must conclude since you believe that faith alone is necessary for heaven, you ‘earn’ heaven by your faith.

One logically leads to the other, yet both are false.

Fact is we are saved by ***God’s ***grace, not ***our ***faith.

We must respond to God’s grace, and that response must be both faith and works. Scripture is quite clear on this.

It also gives us a definition of a "saving faith’ (one with works) and a “useless faith” (one without works).

In order to believe in a ‘faith alone’ salvation, one must take every Bible verse that speaks about faith, and apply the Biblical definition of a useless faith to it. Catholics choose to apply the Biblical definition of a saving faith to those verses.

Which leaves the Bible with no contradictory verses at all by the way. Like when Paul says that the **only **thing that counts is faith, expressing itself through love. Or that those who by **persistence in doing good **seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Or when Jesus says that those who **do **the will of his father will receive eternal life.

Nope, not a single scripture we have to ignore at all. Especially not the only time in scripture the words “faith alone” are actually used – to say that we’re not justified by faith alone.

 

[NotWorthy]

How about the parable of the workers in the field. I never saw the master pay anyone who sat around all day. No, he only paid those that worked in the fields, even if they weren’t hired till the 11th hour. The parable makes it clear that those workers didn’t earn the full day’s pay, but yet they still received what they had been promised.

It’s amazing how Catholic Theology follows the parables of Jesus! Well, actually, it’s NOT amazing. Its exactly what you would EXPECT from the Church that Christ built.

 

[Teflon93]

How about the parable of the workers in the field. I never saw the master pay anyone who sat around all day. No, he only paid those that worked in the fields, even if they weren’t hired till the 11th hour. The parable makes it clear that those workers didn’t earn the full day’s pay, but yet they still received what they had been promised.

It’s amazing how Catholic Theology follows the parables of Jesus! Well, actually, it’s NOT amazing. Its exactly what you would EXPECT from the Church that Christ built.

Let us not forget the parable of the talents, where those who make good use of the Master’s investment in them are rewarded with eternal life, and those who do not are sent away damned.

Or the parable of the sheep and goats, the difference between which is what they did with the grace granted them by God.

Straight from the mouth of Christ, found in Matthew 25.

 

[Thing]

Was’nt there the story of the priest who walked past the man who had been robbed and who lay injured on the ground.
The priest walked past him praying and looking the other way
The good samaritan stopped and helped, (the samaritans were considered lost, and outcasts by the jews), but it was not the good samaritan’s ‘Faith alone’, like the priest’s in judaism, which saved him but it was his good work of mercy which was held up as the example to follow.
Yes?

 

[narnia59]

A protestant said that we don’t need good works because Christ died for us. He said it with a Bible passage: “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends” - John 15.13

What is the truth?

I offer this possible thought to your question as well – find out exactly what they mean by ‘salvation’.

For example, the SBC statement of faith says this about salvation:

In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

My experience is that when most Protestants say they are ‘saved’ they’re actually referring to ‘justification’. Catholics view salvation as being the completed work – we are ‘saved’ when the process is complete and we are fully sanctified and in a state of glorification. This is where much of the issue comes in – we basically believe in the same process but we don’t use the term ‘saved’ to mean the same place in the process.

Catholics would agree that there is nothing that merits what Jesus did for us on the cross – justification.

Protestants generally agree that we must actively cooperate with grace in the process of sanctification, and this would include works.

So ask them if when they are ‘saved’ and no works are required – exactly what do they mean? Does that mean they are already competely sanctified and perfected, and this happened without their active participation? If not, explain to them the difference in being ‘justified’ and in truly being ‘saved’.

I

 

[NotWorthy]

Was’nt there the story of the priest who walked past the man who had been robbed and who lay injured on the ground.
The priest walked past him praying and looking the other way
The good samaritan stopped and helped, (the samaritans were considered lost, and outcasts by the jews), but it was not the good samaritan’s ‘Faith alone’, like the priest’s in judaism, which saved him but it was his good work of mercy which was held up as the example to follow.
Yes?

This has special emphasis when you consider the priest and Levite probably thought they were being loyal and faithful Jews.

 

[VociMike]

A protestant said that we don’t need good works because Christ died for us.

The obvious parallel statement that seems to flow from this view is “we don’t need faith because Christ died for us”.

 

[Teflon93]

The obvious parallel statement that seems to flow from this view is “we don’t need faith because Christ died for us”.

Certainly—after all, the gentiles knew not God before the Crucifixion.

This led to the heretical notion that Christ died only for the Elect, which creates a theological paradox—if Christ died for the Elect, whose faith is nothing more than the grace granted by God, all of Christ’s exhortations to repentance are so much theatrics, free will a mere illusion, and God the author of sin.

If Christ instead died for us all, our duty is clear, and our failure to do our duty is a grave sin.

 

[teachccd]

I completely agree with those passages that say that faith without works is dead. If someone has true faith, they will want to do good works to show praise and thanks to God who first loved us. However, this is not the same as saying that good works are needed to get to heaven. There is a difference between true faith producing good works and good works needed to earn your way to heaven.

We’ll go 'round in circles. We’ll fly high like the birds up in the sky, fly high…

 

[NotWorthy]

I completely agree with those passages that say that faith without works is dead. If someone has true faith, they will want to do good works to show praise and thanks to God who first loved us. However, this is not the same as saying that good works are needed to get to heaven. There is a difference between true faith producing good works and good works needed to earn your way to heaven.

Angie? Has anyone made the claim this way? Does the Church teach this?

What if I said, “Good works are normally needed to receive the Promises that Jesus made…”, is that acceptable?

 

[dcdurel]

Angie? Has anyone made the claim this way? Does the Church teach this?

What if I said, “Good works are normally needed to receive the Promises that Jesus made…”, is that acceptable?

Of course the Church has never taught that we EARN our salvation. Salvation is a gift that Jesus earned. But, He gave the requirements that we obey His teachings to hold on to that gift, OR that we intend to obey His teachings if we die right after we repent, as the good thief. Otherwise we reject that gift and we die in mortal sin and end up where all those who refuse to repent end up, in hell.

 

[Ignatius]

A protestant said that we don’t need good works because Christ died for us. He said it with a Bible passage: “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends” - John 15.13

What is the truth?

The Truth is what Jesus told us. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” Who are you going to believe, Jesus or the Protestants?