What is the use of praying if God is immutable?

[ahs]

What do you mean by accepting his will in our lives?

I mean that God has a Will for me. I can either fight it, or I can accept it. In my experience, it has always been easier to reject His Will…because it’s an easier path. Accepting His Will is more difficult for me, and prayer helps me to do that.

You cannot affect God because he is impassible so praying to thanks God is useless.

What makes you think I want to affect God with my prayers? So far, no one who prays that has answered on this thread has mentioned any need to affect God. You are the only person who has mentioned that.

 

[ahs]

We have two possibilities here, either we pray or don’t.

Okay.

God knows our decision about praying.

Okay. Also, God’s knowledge of whether we pray does not affect our decision of whether we will pray…it simple means He knows whether we will.

Suppose that God answer your praying for a specific case. Now rewind the movie and this time don’t pray.

What makes you think you can rewind the tape and can change your decision? You either prayed for something, or you didn’t. If you didn’t pray, then you didn’t pray. There is no “rewind”.

Of course God doesn’t answer you.

If I never prayed, then of course He didn’t “answer the request that I never made”. But this assumes I never asked to begin with. On the other hand, this doesn’t mean that God will not have performed [whatever action] just because I didn’t ask Him for it.

This however require a change in God’s actions which is impossible because God is immutable.

No it didn’t. It required me to pretend to do something which I cannot do (hit the rewind button).

 

[Bahman]

I mean that God has a Will for me. I can either fight it, or I can accept it. In my experience, it has always been easier to reject His Will…because it’s an easier path. Accepting His Will is more difficult for me, and prayer helps me to do that.

I am totally lost.

What makes you think I want to affect God with my prayers? So far, no one who prays that has answered on this thread has mentioned any need to affect God. You are the only person who has mentioned that.

Please read post #17.

 

[ahs]

I am totally lost.

I explained the best I could.

Please read post #17.

Done.

You left a question unanswered, by the way:

You cannot affect God because he is impassible so praying to thanks God is useless.

What makes you think I want to affect God with my prayers? So far, no one who prays that has answered on this thread has mentioned any need to affect God. You are the only person who has mentioned that.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

It cannot be part of the plan accepting the that God has free will otherwise we are dealing with fatalism.

Incorrect. God is omniscient, and knows all. He exists outside of time, therefore all of existence is one continuous NOW to Him. He can know and factor in our prayers, choices exc. because from His perspective, they have already happened, are in the process of happening, and will happen at some point in the future, all at once. This knowledge does not preclude free will though. He only knows what choice we will make because we make it. This is a very deep metaphysical subject which is kind of hard to grasp.

Also, the point of prayer is not to change God’s mind or anything like that. God’s will is eternal and unchanging. What prayer does it draw us out of ourselves into Him, by participating in His divine love. Through prayer, God changes us, not the other way around.

 

[Bahman]

Okay.

Okay. Also, God’s knowledge of whether we pray does not affect our decision of whether we will pray…it simple means He knows whether we will.

What makes you think you can rewind the tape and can change your decision? You either prayed for something, or you didn’t. If you didn’t pray, then you didn’t pray. There is no “rewind”.

If I never prayed, then of course He didn’t “answer the request that I never made”. But this assumes I never asked to begin with. On the other hand, this doesn’t mean that God will not have performed [whatever action] just because I didn’t ask Him for it.

No it didn’t. It required me to pretend to do something which I cannot do (hit the rewind button).

We need to accept rewinding as a mind experiment for sake of argument. You can either consider two persons in exactly same situation which one of them pray and another don’t.

 

[ahs]

We need to accept rewinding as a mind experiment for sake of argument.

No we don’t. Rather, we need to make sure we try to understand what other people are saying about prayer and be careful not to misrepresent what prayer is.

You can either consider two persons in exactly same situation which one of them pray and another don’t.

It wouldn’t matter, because our prayer would not affect whether God does something. Knowing whether we will pray does not change whether God will act.

Also, You left a question unanswered, again:

Quote:
You cannot affect God because he is impassible so praying to thanks God is useless.

**What makes you think I want to affect God with my prayers? So far, no one who prays that has answered on this thread has mentioned any need to affect God. You are the only person who has mentioned that. **

 

[ProdglArchitect]

We need to accept rewinding as a mind experiment for sake of argument. You can either consider two persons in exactly same situation which one of them pray and another don’t.

“either” implies two options, what’s the second option.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

**What makes you think I want to affect God with my prayers? So far, no one who prays that has answered on this thread has mentioned any need to affect God. You are the only person who has mentioned that. **

As usual Bahaman, you are working off a flawed premise, and refuse to acknowledge when people correct it.

 

[Bahman]

Incorrect. God is omniscient, and knows all. He exists outside of time, therefore all of existence is one continuous NOW to Him. He can know and factor in our prayers, choices exc. because from His perspective, they have already happened, are in the process of happening, and will happen at some point in the future, all at once. This knowledge does not preclude free will though. He only knows what choice we will make because we make it. This is a very deep metaphysical subject which is kind of hard to grasp.

Also, the point of prayer is not to change God’s mind or anything like that. God’s will is eternal and unchanging. What prayer does it draw us out of ourselves into Him, by participating in His divine love. Through prayer, God changes us, not the other way around.

Please read post #17.

 

[Bahman]

I explained the best I could.

Done.

You left a question unanswered, by the way:

What makes you think I want to affect God with my prayers? So far, no one who prays that has answered on this thread has mentioned any need to affect God. You are the only person who has mentioned that.

You are having a relationship with God don’t you? What does a relationship mean if you neither can affect nor be affected.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Please read post #17.

We have two possibilities here, either we pray or don’t. God knows our decision about praying. Suppose that God answer your praying for a specific case. Now rewind the movie and this time don’t pray. Of course God doesn’t answer you. This however require a change in God’s actions which is impossible because God is immutable.

We can chose to pray, or not to pray. God knows our decision because he exists outside of time and has omniscient knowledge about all of our choices.

Whether God answers our prayer or not is an immutable reality; nothing we can do will have any affect on whether it is answered or not. When God answers a prayer (from our perspective), it is because that it what’s best for us. Likewise, if He does not answer a prayer (from our perspective), it is because not answering it is what’s best for us. Whether we ask of not does not change what’s best for us, and would therefore have no affect on the end result because God always does what’s best for us.

Again, you misunderstand the nature of prayer. It’s purpose not to change God’s mind, but rather to open ourselves to His will. We pray for a sick relative because we want them to get well. In some instances, allowing that individual to recover is what’s best for them and us, sometimes it is not. If it is best for us, then even had we not prayed the person would have been cured. If it is best for us, then no matter how hard we may pray, that person may not recover.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

You are having a relationship with God don’t you? What does a relationship mean if you neither can affect nor be affected.

The ability to affect and be affect only applies when both parties in a relationship are in need of development and growth. I grow in love for my wife, and she grows in love with me because neither of our loves is perfected. If my wife had perfect love for me, then she could no longer grow in that love, and so would no longer require development; only I would grow grow in love from our interactions.

God is perfect love. He cannot grow in love because there is no facet or reality of love which He does not already possess. It is only us who are lacking, and so it is us who grow through our relationship with God. This does not make the relationship meaningless from God’s perspective or our. The more I grow to love God, the more He can share His love with me; the greater my love, the greater my ability to receive love, and the greater my ability to share love with others.

 

[pianistclare]

Prayer is a request not a demand.

Um, I didn’t say it was.

 

[Fauken]

We can chose to pray, or not to pray. God knows our decision because he exists outside of time and has omniscient knowledge about all of our choices.

Whether God answers our prayer or not is an immutable reality; nothing we can do will have any affect on whether it is answered or not. When God answers a prayer (from our perspective), it is because that it what’s best for us. Likewise, if He does not answer a prayer (from our perspective), it is because not answering it is what’s best for us. Whether we ask of not does not change what’s best for us, and would therefore have no affect on the end result because God always does what’s best for us.

Again, you misunderstand the nature of prayer. It’s purpose not to change God’s mind, but rather to open ourselves to His will. We pray for a sick relative because we want them to get well. In some instances, allowing that individual to recover is what’s best for them and us, sometimes it is not. If it is best for us, then even had we not prayed the person would have been cured. If it is best for us, then no matter how hard we may pray, that person may not recover.

I’m just following along this thread and wanted to ask this for the sake of my pen understanding of what you’re saying.

Prayer is when I attempt to conform myself to God’s will. When I pray and place a petition before God, I may want Him to do one thing, but by praying to Him, I open myself up to the possibility that God’s will may not be what I want. After God answers my prayer, it is up to me to accept his will or reject it.

Is this a correct understanding?

Is this correct?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I’m just following along this thread and wanted to ask this for the sake of my pen understanding of what you’re saying.

Prayer is when I attempt to conform myself to God’s will. When I pray and place a petition before God, I may want Him to do one thing, but by praying to Him, I open myself up to the possibility that God’s will may not be what I want. After God answers my prayer, it is up to me to accept his will or reject it.

Is this a correct understanding?

Is this correct?

That is my understanding. God’s will is immutable, it is always “whatever is best for this individual.” In some instances, our prayers line up with “what is best for us.” In those cases, we consider our prayers to have “been answered.” In other instances, what we desire is at odds with what is best for us. In those cases, we consider our prayers to have “not been answered.” Really though, in those latter instances, our prayers were answered, just not how we wanted them to be.

As we pray, we (should) put a greater focus on God’s will, rather than our own. (This is a really difficult thing for a lot of us to do, myself included.) If we pray this way, then we come to accept God’s will more and more in our life. Since God’s will is always what is best for us, this will inevitably lead to spiritual flourishing. Incidentally, as we develop in this way, our interior desires will become more attuned to God’s desires, so to us it will seem that our prayers are answered more often. XD

 

[ahs]

You are having a relationship with God don’t you? What does a relationship mean if you neither can affect nor be affected.

See post #34. Yes, I am in a relationship with God. In this relationship, I strive to become more and more like Him, because He is perfect and I am not. The fact that He cannot be affected (HE is perfect) means that I am truly the one benefiting from the relationship. It’s pretty wonderful, if you ask me!

 

[Joe_5859]

You don’t need to pray to change yourself.

Prayer isn’t the only way to change myself. But it’s the only way to change myself to be more the person that God created me to be and to follow his will. It’s hard for me to know what His will is if I don’t talk to Him.

 

[laocmo]

“The “use of prayer” is in helping us accept His Will in our lives. It’s also useful for showing thanks to Him, praising Him, talking to Him…etc…”

We should not need help in accepting his will. There is nothing we can do about it. So just resign yourself to accepting whatever cards fate deals you. Sounds like whoever thinks prayer will help in this situation is holding out for the slightest chance that he will really listen to them and violate a couple of his attribute laws just for them. Regardless of what they say, deep down they are really trying to influence him. That can’t be done.

Prayer useful for showing thanks? His non-human attributes guarantee he is not affected by anything we think or do. He can’t be grateful in other words. Gratitude is a human characteristic. So why bother?

Prayer is useful for praising him? Praise cannot affect him. Read his attribute list.

Talking to him? Why? Nothing you say can affect him in the slightest. It will get you no rewards.

Don’t you wish sometimes those ancient theologians hadn’t dreamed up all those nasty attributes?

 

[DCNBILL]

That is my understanding. God’s will is immutable, it is always “whatever is best for this individual.” In some instances, our prayers line up with “what is best for us.” In those cases, we consider our prayers to have “been answered.” In other instances, what we desire is at odds with what is best for us. In those cases, we consider our prayers to have “not been answered.” Really though, in those latter instances, our prayers were answered, just not how we wanted them to be.

As we pray, we (should) put a greater focus on God’s will, rather than our own. (This is a really difficult thing for a lot of us to do, myself included.) If we pray this way, then we come to accept God’s will more and more in our life. Since God’s will is always what is best for us, this will inevitably lead to spiritual flourishing. Incidentally, as we develop in this way, our interior desires will become more attuned to God’s desires, so to us it will seem that our prayers are answered more often. XD

This is precisely the example Jesus gave us in the agony in the garden.