I would counter that we frequently need help accepting His will. Just because it’s inevitable doesn’t mean we are psychologically prepared to face whatever comes.“The “use of prayer” is in helping us accept His Will in our lives. It’s also useful for showing thanks to Him, praising Him, talking to Him…etc…”
We should not need help in accepting his will. There is nothing we can do about it. So just resign yourself to accepting whatever cards fate deals you. Sounds like whoever thinks prayer will help in this situation is holding out for the slightest chance that he will really listen to them and violate a couple of his attribute laws just for them. Regardless of what they say, deep down they are really trying to influence him. That can’t be done.
Thanking God is showing our gratitude to Him, not expecting a response of gratitude from Him.Prayer useful for showing thanks? His non-human attributes guarantee he is not affected by anything we think or do. He can’t be grateful in other words. Gratitude is a human characteristic. So why bother?
We praise God because praise is what He deserves, for the very attributes you despise. We do not think that our praise is something He needs or benefits from.Prayer is useful for praising him? Praise cannot affect him. Read his attribute list.
Do we only talk to people when we expect rewards?Talking to him? Why? Nothing you say can affect him in the slightest. It will get you no rewards.
If I thought they had merely dreamt them up and they weren’t true, I would have no use for them. But I rather think that they were working out what the one true God must be like – NOT just a bigger, more powerful version of us, but another kind of existence entirely.Don’t you wish sometimes those ancient theologians hadn’t dreamed up all those nasty attributes?
On the impassible part I almost can see where you are coming from.What do you mean by accepting his will in our lives?
You cannot affect God because he is impassible so praying to thanks God is useless.
Mother Angelica thanked God for her suffering daily. Many Saints throughout history are known to thank God for their suffering because it helps them to better understand Christ’s sacrifice. Even the Apostle Paul is recorded as thanking God for his pains as humbling reminders of his need for God.On the impassible part I almost can see where you are coming from.
I think a lot of thanks would not exist if we didn’t have so much to be thankful of.
I can’t imagine anyone saying, thank you for giving me a cold, the flu, or some debilitating disease.
THANK YOU for the correction. I neglected to communicate my thoughts completely. I think I must have like Saul when thrown to the ground? I was referring to the reality that anguish often if not always gains the upper hand on thanks. And as I did say, only faith in the cross can change us. But to thank you again, when we become accustomed to a particular suffering then I totally agree that we can easily thank God for that suffering (our cross).Mother Angelica thanked God for her suffering daily. Many Saints throughout history are known to thank God for their suffering because it helps them to better understand Christ’s sacrifice. Even the Apostle Paul is recorded as thanking God for his pains as humbling reminders of his need for God.
I’m not saying it’s easy, but many people do it.
It seems to me that you didn’t get my paradox so I repeat it again: We have two possibilities here, either we pray or don’t. God knows our decision about praying. Suppose that God answer your praying for a specific case. Now rewind the movie and this time don’t pray. Of course God doesn’t answer you. This however require a change in God’s actions which is impossible because God is immutable.We can chose to pray, or not to pray. God knows our decision because he exists outside of time and has omniscient knowledge about all of our choices.
Whether God answers our prayer or not is an immutable reality; nothing we can do will have any affect on whether it is answered or not. When God answers a prayer (from our perspective), it is because that it what’s best for us. Likewise, if He does not answer a prayer (from our perspective), it is because not answering it is what’s best for us. Whether we ask of not does not change what’s best for us, and would therefore have no affect on the end result because God always does what’s best for us.
Again, you misunderstand the nature of prayer. It’s purpose not to change God’s mind, but rather to open ourselves to His will. We pray for a sick relative because we want them to get well. In some instances, allowing that individual to recover is what’s best for them and us, sometimes it is not. If it is best for us, then even had we not prayed the person would have been cured. If it is best for us, then no matter how hard we may pray, that person may not recover.
No, relationship is not always about growing.The ability to affect and be affect only applies when both parties in a relationship are in need of development and growth. I grow in love for my wife, and she grows in love with me because neither of our loves is perfected. If my wife had perfect love for me, then she could no longer grow in that love, and so would no longer require development; only I would grow grow in love from our interactions.
God is perfect love. He cannot grow in love because there is no facet or reality of love which He does not already possess. It is only us who are lacking, and so it is us who grow through our relationship with God. This does not make the relationship meaningless from God’s perspective or our. The more I grow to love God, the more He can share His love with me; the greater my love, the greater my ability to receive love, and the greater my ability to share love with others.
You need to search alone to find out what is best way for growing since God is always idle. Hence there is no use for praying. Moreover there are two sides in any relationship. Has ever God talk back to you?See post #34. Yes, I am in a relationship with God. In this relationship, I strive to become more and more like Him, because He is perfect and I am not. The fact that He cannot be affected (HE is perfect) means that I am truly the one benefiting from the relationship. It’s pretty wonderful, if you ask me!
I understood your “paradox” Bahaman, it’s just not an actual paradox. The fact that you can’t understand something doesn’t make it a paradox.It seems to me that you didn’t get my paradox so I repeat it again: We have two possibilities here, either we pray or don’t. God knows our decision about praying. Suppose that God answer your praying for a specific case. Now rewind the movie and this time don’t pray. Of course God doesn’t answer you. This however require a change in God’s actions which is impossible because God is immutable.
#1: This isn’t even a complete thought.No, relationship is not always about growing.
My goal is to find why Catholic educated people like you can completely ignore the true logical consequences of God’s attributes. Without making a bunch of excuses, assigning special meaning to them, blaming us for being human and not understanding them, etc. Clearly they indicate that God is not affected by prayer, of any kind. The exercise seems completely futile except as a psychological crutch for the insecure. I would bet that not 5% of Catholics even know of his so called attributes, much less have analyzed their meaning. I could have a much easier time of believing in God if He was one of us. Not some mysterious creature hidden by that list of attributes.… and (if) you find they get in the way of your ability to relate to God, why not discard them and get on with it rather than repeatedly complaining to the rest of us? Most of us already know the classical attributes ascribed to God and have not thereby been moved to reject Him. You do not listen when we try to explain why that is. What is your goal here?
A few things here:My goal is to find why Catholic educated people like you can completely ignore the true logical consequences of God’s attributes. Without making a bunch of excuses, assigning special meaning to them, blaming us for being human and not understanding them, etc.
True. God is not affected by our prayers; at least not in the causal sense the word “affect” generally implies.Clearly they indicate that God is not affected by prayer, of any kind.
False. As I, and others, have said, the purpose of prayer is not to affect God, but rather to allow God to affect us. This has nothing to do with being insecure, it has to do with recognizing that things are in God’s hands, not ours. I’ve already gone in depth on this in two other posts, so I don’t think I’ll repeat myself again here.The exercise seems completely futile except as a psychological crutch for the insecure.
Honestly, you’re probably right. The thing is, intense study into God’s attributes is not necessary for faith. Would it be better if everybody had a deep understanding of God’s nature and attributes? Probably; maybe not. I can’t really say. Is it necessary for a strong faith life? No.I would bet that not 5% of Catholics even know of his so called attributes, much less have analyzed their meaning.
If you want a merely human god, the Greeks had that covered. Their gods were jealous, spiteful, angry hedonists; nothing could be more “human.” If you actually want to see God expressed as a human, look no further than Christ. In Christ we see the eternal God as mankind perfected.I could have a much easier time of believing in God if He was one of us. Not some mysterious creature hidden by that list of attributes.
In other words we invent a special meaning for the word “affect” when it pertains to God? I would hardly call the Oxford Dictionary definition of affect a casual definition.
It’s not a matter of inventing a new meaning for the word. Cause and affect are temporal principles, a series of event results in a specific outcome. God is not temporal, He is outside of time. As such, affect is not an accurate word to describe what happens, but it is the closest word we have, so it’s what we use. Unfortunately, that limitation in language results in some misunderstandings like yours. We cannot affect God because God is eternal and unchanging; however, God has known of our prayers throughout eternity because all of existence is an ever-present “Now” to Him. So, if our prayers were going to “affect” him, this “affect” would have been present throughout all of eternity.
Sounds like you are saying prayer is for asking God to affect us. This would imply that our prayers are to influence him to affect us in some way that would not happen if we hadn’t prayed. That violates an attribute law. We cannot influence him so says the attribute.
It is a paradox. What is your solution for it if it is not really a paradox.I understood your “paradox” Bahaman, it’s just not an actual paradox. The fact that you can’t understand something doesn’t make it a paradox.
What is the use of praying then if God always does the best regardless of whether we pray or not.You do not understand the nature of prayer or of God’s will. The same thing would happen whether we pray or not. God does not answer our prayers because we pray them; He “answers” them because that is what is best for us. What is best for us does not change regardless of whether we pray for it or not, so God’s decision to act would remain constant regardless of whether we pray or not.
How praying doesn’t change the outcome but it has power to change you? You are contradicting yourself.To put it as simply as I am capable, we do not have to ask God to do what is best for us for Him to do it. He will do what is best for us regardless of if we pray or not. Hence, praying or not praying for something will not change the outcome, it will only change us.
Why? I just claim that relationship is not for growth always.#1: This isn’t even a complete thought.
Relationships is most of the time for our needs.#2: Every relationship is about growth, or at least results in growth. Whether that is growth of vice or virtue depends on the nature of the relationship, but you cannot have a relationship without growth. That aside, that’s not even the point I was arguing. The point you made is that our relationship for God is meaningless if God cannot change, to which I pointed out that the point of our relationship with God is not for Him to change (being that He is perfect and needs no change), but rather the point is that we change as we embrace His love.
I of course read your post.Seriously Bahaman, do you even read our posts? It really seems like you don’t. Once again, you’ve done nothing more than repeat what you’ve already said, despite the fact that we’ve so thoroughly destroyed your position that we could use it for confetti. Why are you on these forums if you refuse to learn anything or give people’s arguments the consideration they deserve?
Thanks for your advices. I constantly read and learn from you.I’m really, really not trying to be mean here, but I do not understand why you waste your time and ours day after day after day with the same half-bake “philosophical” positions, and then ignore every point that’s made which contradicts those positions? Wouldn’t your time be much better spent reading about philosophy? You seem to have a real interest in the subject, you just lack the proper learning needed to really engage on philosophical topics. You also seem to lack the humility to recognize when your position has been defeated. Why don’t you spend some of the time you spend here and pick up a good philosophy book? I know I’ve suggested them to you before, but there are a number of good books about St. Thomas Aquinas’ philosophies that are accessible to anyone. I really, really think reading them would do you a lot of good, and would help clear up a lot of these misconceptions. I really want you to get better at this stuff, since you seem to enjoy it so much.
I’m sorry Bahman,You need to search alone to find out what is best way for growing since God is always idle. Hence there is no use for praying. Moreover there are two sides in any relationship. Has ever God talk back to you?
By idle I meant that He doesn’t speak out when we pray. I sometimes read on line Bible.I’m sorry Bahman,
I just saw the above and would like to comment.
You yourself said in your O.P. that God is not idle and that He has to sustain creation and that He cannot sleep in order to sustain creation. Okay.
Above you’re saying that God is idle? Am I misunderstanding??
You know, if you never prayed, God would love you anyway. But it’s good to pray.
You’re here on this forum talking to us. Do you like to talk to us? I see you start many threads, so you must like to talk and you must like to be listened to. This is a good thing. Fellowship is good. Man was not meant to be alone.
So why would it be different with God? If we speak to each other to get to know each other and to know what the other person thinks, why shouldn’t it be this way with God?
We tell Him all our things and have a discourse with the Creator of the universe. Think of it. Then, if we listen carefully, He DOES speak back to us. But you have to have a soft heart, ears that can hear and eyes that can see. You need to be UNFROZEN. You know that song “Unchain My Heart”. Yeah. If our heart is unchained, we can hear God.
One way to hear Him is through His word.
Why won’t you tell me if you have a bible?
Why won’t you tell me if you read it?
God speaks to us through His bible!
GG
What you have proposed is a paradox, but it is a paradox that only exists in your mind. Your conception does not reflect reality.It is a paradox. What is your solution for it if it is not really a paradox.
For the last time, the point is for US to change. We pray to God because we want to make our petitions known for us, and because we are called to pray for others. This prayer brings us closer to God, which is the entire point of our existence.What is the use of praying then if God always does the best regardless of whether we pray or not.
How is this even remotely a contradiction? Not changing God and yet changing myself is not a contradiction…How praying doesn’t change the outcome but it has power to change you? You are contradicting yourself.
Exactly. You claimed something. You gave no reason for it, you just stated it as though it was fact. this is probably your biggest shortcoming. You are never able to back up your assertions.Why? I just claim that relationship is not for growth always.
Our “needs” as regards our relationship with God are to grow in love for him. As such, the growth we experience as a result of that relationship does fulfill that relationship’s primary purpose and out primary need in entering into it.Relationships is most of the time for our needs.
Sometimes, it really does not seem like it.I of course read your post.
We all want you to understand everything better Bahaman, we really do.Thanks for your advices. I constantly read and learn from you.
Actually, He does speak to us when we pray, and really even when we’re not praying. The problem is that a lot of the time we aren’t open enough to Him to hear Him speaking to us. God’s speaking to us doesn’t have to come as a thunderous voice from the sky, it can come is the quite stirrings of our heart.By idle I meant that He doesn’t speak out when we pray. I sometimes read on line Bible.
God doesn’t speak out Bahman.By idle I meant that He doesn’t speak out when we pray. I sometimes read on line Bible.