What is wanting?

[STT]

Yes, the case could be made that child sacrifice is good as long as everyone in a particular society agrees. But the case can also be made that such is always objectively wrong, regardless of popular opinion at the time.

Objective morality if it really exists is outside of subject of this thread. All I am saying is that his act is rationally correct.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

You of course need education for being rational. Is he guilty of his action because he haven’t received enough education?

You do not require any level of education to be rational/ irrational, nor practise free will.

This conversation is not about guilt or innocence. He is not on trial here.

He may well be a PH.D in maths. and have the farm next door.

This conversation is not about education, or lack thereof either.

To use your own words, dont go off topic.

Show me now, how your original premise works please.

 

[STT]

You do not require any level of education to be rational/ irrational, nor practise free will.

This conversation is not about guilt or innocence. He is not on trial here.

He may well be a PH.D in maths. and have the farm next door.

This conversation is not about education, or lack thereof either.

To use your own words, dont go off topic.

Show me now, how your original premise works please.

What you want me to show you? All I was saying is that free will only can leads to bad so its very existence doesn’t make any sense from evolutionary or creationist point of view.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

What you want me to show you? All I was saying is that free will only can leads to bad so its very existence doesn’t make any sense from evolutionary or creationist point of view.

I WANT YOU to show how you validate your original premise . Or this reworded one…

" free will only leads to bad "

And

" the existence of free will makes no sense"

See for free will , think about how many times a person has used free will to do good. Think of heroic acts. Here is one that happened on my road last week.

A 20yo crashed her car into a tree.
The car caught fire.
She was injured trapped in a burning car.

An unassuming hero was driving by. He stopped.
He dragged the 20yo from the burning car.

She was airlifted to the city , to a hospital.

He stopped at the local road house to regroup. He was shaking and in shock.

Now he used his free will to risk his own life to save hers.

The car was on fire, the grass was on fire. The car could have blown up.

So that is one example of using free will for good.

 

[Vico]

We know this.

That is correct too.

His act is rationally correct.

The act is not rationally correct because being sinful it is objectively an offense against reason.

 

[STT]

I WANT YOU to show how you validate your original premise . Or this reworded one.

Using capital letter is not polite but anyhow here you can find my answer.

" free will only leads to bad "

It is simple. Rationality can only leads to good therefore free will can only allows to go against rationality.

" the existence of free will makes no sense"

Something which does only leads to bad allows destruction in long term.

See for free will , think about how many times a person has used free will to do good. Think of heroic acts. Here is one that happened on my road last week.

A 20yo crashed her car into a tree.
The car caught fire.
She was injured trapped in a burning car.

An unassuming hero was driving by. He stopped.
He dragged the 20yo from the burning car.

She was airlifted to the city , to a hospital.

He stopped at the local road house to regroup. He was shaking and in shock.

Now he used his free will to risk his own life to save hers.

The car was on fire, the grass was on fire. The car could have blown up.

So that is one example of using free will for good.

A heroic act does have nothing to do with free will. It only is the result of hormone rush. It has deep root in our nature, like what our parents do, etc.

 

[STT]

The act is not rationally correct because being sinful it is objectively an offense against reason.

Are you suggesting that we should act like God? Since only God knows what is the the best in any situation. There is no objective morality when we are dealing with a situation otherwise we should sacrifice things for an idol, objective morality. We are human being and limited. We can never know what is the best in a given situation yet we can try to do our best. And the most important tool we have in our disposal is reason. Therefore any act supported with rationality is good, of course not best as it is reasoned.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Using capital letter is not polite but anyhow here you can find my answer.

STT you failed to read the nuances in that. AH THE IRONY!

It is simple. Rationality can only leads to good therefore free will can only allows to go against rationality.

STT That is a statement, it is akin to ’ the sky is blue, until it’s gray’
This is not an argument for your position.

Something which does only leads to bad allows destruction in long term.

STT WHAT?..

A heroic act does have nothing to do with free will. It only is the result of hormone rush. It has deep root in our nature, like what our parents do, etc.

STT so you reckon this guy had a surge of hormones, what kind? Specifically? And how do those hormones cause him to do this heroic act. After all, he was driving at 100km on a country road, and only , after turning a bend, saw a burning car , in an instant.

STT HUH? ‘Like our parents do’ ?

I WANT YOU to start thinking about the responses.

 

[Vico]

Are you suggesting that we should act like God? Since only God knows what is the the best in any situation. There is no objective morality when we are dealing with a situation otherwise we should sacrifice things for an idol, objective morality. We are human being and limited. We can never know what is the best in a given situation yet we can try to do our best. And the most important tool we have in our disposal is reason. Therefore any act supported with rationality is good, of course not best as it is reasoned.

There is a natural law in the conscience.

Reason may be faulty. Some acts based on reason are based on erroneous judgments. A rational being may act contrary to reason, that is from malice, passion, or ignorance, and contrary acts may be by habit.
“Rational decisions and thoughts are based on reason rather than on emotion.” Collins Dictinary.

 

[fhansen]

What you want me to show you? All I was saying is that free will only can leads to bad so its very existence doesn’t make any sense from evolutionary or creationist point of view.

If it’s true that love can only be possessed and cultivated and grown and acted upon by a rational being who freely opts for it, who chooses it, then might it not also be true that the experience of evil-defined as the negation of love-might eventually have the effect of helping such a being turn away from that evil and towards love, with the *net *effect being greater and more widespread love ultimately blossoming and existing throughout our world/universe than would otherwise have occurred? A greater good being the result as darkness, itself resulting from free choice, is overcome by light which is freely chosen instead? Can free will actually be the key to the best possible world even if it can allow a detour into a worse one-temporarily?

 

[STT]

STT you failed to read the nuances in that. AH THE IRONY!

I am sorry. Please accept my apology.

STT That is a statement, it is akin to ’ the sky is blue, until it’s gray’
This is not an argument for your position.

I am sorry that I have to repeat myself. I cannot make it more clearer than that: Rationality can only leads to good therefore free will can only allows to go against rationality which means allowing bad.

STT WHAT?..

So the question is what is the purpose of having free will when it only leads to bad?

STT so you reckon this guy had a surge of hormones, what kind? Specifically? And how do those hormones cause him to do this heroic act. After all, he was driving at 100km on a country road, and only , after turning a bend, saw a burning car , in an instant.

STT HUH? ‘Like our parents do’ ?

I WANT YOU to start thinking about the responses.

I think that I am correct. We do not freely choose to love people. That is something deep inside our nature.

 

[STT]

There is a natural law in the conscience.

Reason may be faulty. Some acts based on reason are based on erroneous judgments. A rational being may act contrary to reason, that is from malice, passion, or ignorance, and contrary acts may be by habit.
“Rational decisions and thoughts are based on reason rather than on emotion.” Collins Dictinary.

That is why God forgive our act and judgment in most of the time. Why? Because we are not perfect. We are not omniscient so we couldn’t possibly do the best. Sometimes we think that what we are doing is the best but it is the worst. Why we should be blamed?

Moreover rationality is always align with reason. This is definition of rationality: The quality of being based on or in accordance with reason or logic.

 

[STT]

If it’s true that love can only be possessed and cultivated and grown and acted upon by a rational being who freely opts for it, who chooses it, then might it not also be true that the experience of evil-defined as the negation of love-might eventually have the effect of helping such a being turn away from that evil and towards love, with the *net *effect being greater and more widespread love ultimately blossoming and existing throughout our world/universe than would otherwise have occurred?

I doubt it. What we see as a growth in human culture is the result of a better understanding of our position in nature. That made us a better rational agent which eventually leads to good.

A greater good being the result as darkness, itself resulting from free choice, is overcome by light which is freely chosen instead?

Choosing light instead of darkness is a rational act.

Can free will actually be the key to the best possible world even if it can allow a detour into a worse one-temporarily?

Free will can leads to bad again if it leaded to bad in the past.

 

[Vico]

That is why God forgive our act and judgment in most of the time. Why? Because we are not perfect. We are not omniscient so we couldn’t possibly do the best. Sometimes we think that what we are doing is the best but it is the worst. Why we should be blamed?

Moreover rationality is always align with reason. This is definition of rationality: The quality of being based on or in accordance with reason or logic.

God only forgives those that are truly sorry and repent. It is possible to do the best sometimes. We are responsible for the uncharitable acts and omissions made through willful free when we know it is wrong.

 

[STT]

God only forgives those that are truly sorry and repent. It is possible to do the best sometimes. We are responsible for the uncharitable acts and omissions made through willful free when we know it is wrong.

You don’t need to feel sorry for the act you thought it is the best and it turns into bad.

 

[rinnie]

Think of a situation that you have two options which you can only choose one. Suppose that you study the situation well and realize that one option is good and another is bad. It seems rationally reasonable to choose good instead of bad but we know that we sometimes choose bad. There are two scenarios available here: (1) We have free will and (2) There is a underlying reason for choosing bad, curiosity or another deep reason that we are not consciously aware of it. In first case, it is interesting to note that there is no point in having free will whether we are created being or the result of evolution. It is just absurd. In the second case we are simply a machine and we are not consciously aware why we want bad.

How could we use free will to make a choice is we are not consciously aware of it? You just said its seems rationally reasonable to choose good instead of bad? Why do you feel it is rational to sin?? Machines do not have choices. Machines do not have free will. Machines are programmed to do something by a human mind.

 

[rinnie]

The act is not rationally correct because being sinful it is objectively an offense against reason.

Exactly just like Adam and Eve KNEW not to eat from the Tree, God told them NOT to. But they chose to go against their own reason and disobey God.

When you know right from wrong it does not matter what reasoning you give to sin, a sin is a sin.

 

[rinnie]

That is why God forgive our act and judgment in most of the time. Why? Because we are not perfect. We are not omniscient so we couldn’t possibly do the best. Sometimes we think that what we are doing is the best but it is the worst. Why we should be blamed?

Moreover rationality is always align with reason. This is definition of rationality: The quality of being based on or in accordance with reason or logic.

I disagree, We can do the best we know, we do know right from wrong. If we do what we think is right in our heart God knows this. I disagree also that because we are not omniscient we cannot possibly do our best. God know our heart and knows when we are truly doing our best, even if it seems wrong. It is when we go against our own heart and reasoning and refuse to do what we think is right,and go against our own conscience.

 

[STT]

How could we use free will to make a choice is we are not consciously aware of it?

You of course need to be consciously aware of the situation to make a rational or free choice.

You just said its seems rationally reasonable to choose good instead of bad?

Yes.

Why do you feel it is rational to sin??

Sin is irrational therefore we cannot sin rationally. We however can use our free will to commit sin which is irrational. The main question related to this thread is what is the use of free will if it always allows bad. We don’t really need it.

Machines do not have choices. Machines do not have free will. Machines are programmed to do something by a human mind.

That is not correct. Machine can choose rationally. Machine cannot choose freely.

 

[STT]

I disagree, We can do the best we know, we do know right from wrong.

No, we don’t know right from wrong as a omniscient know.

If we do what we think is right in our heart God knows this. I disagree also that because we are not omniscient we cannot possibly do our best.

We can do our best but that could not be the best possible thing, something that a omniscient can do.

God know our heart and knows when we are truly doing our best, even if it seems wrong. It is when we go against our own heart and reasoning and refuse to do what we think is right,and go against our own conscience.

That is exactly when free will come to play its role. So the question is what is it and what is the use of it?