D
Daisiegirl
Guest
Didn’t JPII remove their shoes and pray with Buddhists and/or Hindus (I can’t remember which) and at Mohamet with Muslims? I also thought that BXVI was just recently praying with Muslims at Mohamet, too?
- Status
S
Sure
Guest
Is removing shoes “worhsip”?
How do you know what Benedict XVI or to whom Benedict XVI prayed? Or even if he did pray?
B
bear06
Guest
Are you insinuating that JPII or BXV! of being an apostates?
D
Daisiegirl
Guest
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, isn’t it a duck? I have a strong inclination to believe that Saint Paul would have reprimanded such an action… because don’t actions speak louder than words??
D
Daisiegirl
Guest
To Sure ~ then what exactly was BXVI doing with Muslims at Mohamet?
S
Sure
Guest
I don’t know…meeting, talking, visiting, affirming common beliefs, showing christian hospitality, closing his eyes and praying for the conversion of Muslims, etc…I don’t really know for certain…and neither do you. But we don’t really have any reason to assume big horrible evil actions, do we???
D
Daisiegirl
Guest
Indifferentism and being aloof is something very foreign to me… if my observations, somehow put you on the defensive, you have to ask yourself, what you are defending… I on the other hand defend Catholicism to Its core… however, i don’t profess to know everything… only God and my mother do…
B
bear06
Guest
OK, so you think there apostates. Thanks for clarifying that. Now I’m wondering how you think St. Paul fits in here? He never declared Peter an apostate. This seems to be another thing that gets twisted. He resisted him to his face for a personal transgression. That said, Paul very may well have told JPII that he was making a mistake. He wouldn’t have called him an apostate for it though.
BTW, “actions speak louder than words” is far from an infallible quote. If you look at Our Lords own life, people jumped to a lot of conclusions. Because he reclined with sinners didn’t make him one nor did it mean that he believe as they did.
T
ThereCanBeOnly1
Guest
T
ThereCanBeOnly1
Guest
**Sure, Bear06,
In all seriousness,
Since you both are all for kissing the Qur’an and removing shoes of heretics and apostates, please enlighten How often have you performed these, according to you both, ‘Normal’ Acts?**
In all seriousness,
Since you both are all for kissing the Qur’an and removing shoes of heretics and apostates, please enlighten How often have you performed these, according to you both, ‘Normal’ Acts?**
S
Sure
Guest
ThereCanBeOnly1,
I didn’t say taking off shoes was worship…someone else did. I thought is sounded funny, too. That’s why I asked the question.
Now for the Benedict XVI praying part. How do we know what he was praying? Here’s an idea…The Holy Father is meeting with some Muslims. The Muslims say prayer and the Holy Father stands quietly looking at the ground, probably praying to the Lord to convert the Muslims. Then, the Imam says would you like to pray? The Holy Father closes his eyes and implores Holy Spirit to convert the Muslims. Is it really reasonable to assume that something else happened?
I didn’t say taking off shoes was worship…someone else did. I thought is sounded funny, too. That’s why I asked the question.
Now for the Benedict XVI praying part. How do we know what he was praying? Here’s an idea…The Holy Father is meeting with some Muslims. The Muslims say prayer and the Holy Father stands quietly looking at the ground, probably praying to the Lord to convert the Muslims. Then, the Imam says would you like to pray? The Holy Father closes his eyes and implores Holy Spirit to convert the Muslims. Is it really reasonable to assume that something else happened?
T
ThereCanBeOnly1
Guest
Well, I’ve yet to be called an apostate so maybe I’ll give it a go even though it would wrongly be applied again.<------- That was a joke. T, don’t you ever wonder why people don’t get along the way we do?:hug1:
TBCO1, you are partially quoting. Let’s look at the whole shebang. You skipped a few parts:
Believe you me I love the Summa and the whole Shebang especially the part you failed to quote As Follows:
SUMMA THEOLOGICA
Secunda Secundæ Partis
Faith: Question 12: Apostasy
Article 1
or SS Q12:A1
Reply to Objection 2. It belongs to faith not only that the heart should believe, but also that external words and deeds should bear witness to the inward faith, for confession is an act of faith. On this way too, certain external words or deeds pertain to unbelief, in so far as they are signs of unbelief, even as a sign of health is said itself to be healthy. Now although the authority quoted may be understood as referring to every kind of apostate, yet it applies most truly to an apostate from the faith. For since faith is the first foundation of things to be hoped for, and since, without faith it is “impossible to please God”; when once faith is removed, man retains nothing that may be useful for the obtaining of eternal salvation, for which reason it is written (Proverbs 6:12): “A man that is an apostate, an unprofitable man”: because faith is the life of the soul, according to Romans 1:17: “The just man liveth by faith.” Therefore, just as when the life of the body is taken away, man’s every member and part loses its due disposition, so when the life of justice, which is by faith, is done away, disorder appears in all his members. First, in his mouth, whereby chiefly his mind stands revealed; secondly, in his eyes; thirdly, in the instrument of movement; fourthly, in his will, which tends to evil. The result is that “he sows discord,” endeavoring to sever others from the faith even as he severed himself
(newadvent.org/summa/3012.htm)
The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920
T
ThereCanBeOnly1
Guest
**Believe you me I love the Summa and the whole Shebang SUCH AS:
SUMMA THEOLOGICA
Secunda Secundæ Partis
Faith: Question 12: Apostasy
Article 1
or SS Q12:A1**
Reply to Objection 2. It belongs to faith not only that the heart should believe, but also that external words and deeds should bear witness to the inward faith, for confession is an act of faith. On this way too, certain external words or deeds pertain to unbelief, in so far as they are signs of unbelief, even as a sign of health is said itself to be healthy. Now although the authority quoted may be understood as referring to every kind of apostate, yet it applies most truly to an apostate from the faith. For since faith is the first foundation of things to be hoped for, and since, without faith it is “impossible to please God”; when once faith is removed, man retains nothing that may be useful for the obtaining of eternal salvation, for which reason it is written (Proverbs 6:12): “A man that is an apostate, an unprofitable man”: because faith is the life of the soul, according to Romans 1:17: “The just man liveth by faith.” Therefore, just as when the life of the body is taken away, man’s every member and part loses its due disposition, so when the life of justice, which is by faith, is done away, disorder appears in all his members. First, in his mouth, whereby chiefly his mind stands revealed; secondly, in his eyes; thirdly, in the instrument of movement; fourthly, in his will, which tends to evil. The result is that “he sows discord,” endeavoring to sever others from the faith even as he severed himself
(newadvent.org/summa/3012.htm)
The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas
Second and Revised Edition, 1920
Actually I use this quote often
T
ThereCanBeOnly1
Guest
Fair enough.
We know one thing for sure, he did not do what St Francis did when he preached Christ to Sultans (Muslims). That is what he should be doing and not a masonic ideology of Ecumenism.
Conversion to Christ for the Salvation of Souls is of the utmost importance any other dialog is, to say the least, secondary if not futile
B
bear06
Guest
Get a clue and stop distorting the fact. You’ll have a lot trouble proving that I’m for kissing the Koran and you know it. Methinks you’re having trouble dealing with the arguments made that it’s not an act of apostasy and/or that the past 2 popes are not apostates. How about trying to be honest in your argumentation instead of contantly throwing out red herrings to distract people?
And again, my comment was that kissing the Koran in and of itself is not an act of apostasy. The Summa doesn’t contradict this.
B
bear06
Guest
And yet Fulton Sheen tells us to expound on the truth in it to bring people to the Faith. Oh yeah, that’s just his opinion.
S
Sure
Guest
Generally though, it is helpful to speak to people if you wish to convert them. It is even helpful to start a conversation based upon a common belief that may be held. If you just shout “CONVERT NOW” you probably won’t have much luck. If you say, “so, you guys believe in an Almighty God?”
“Cool, so do we.”
“What’s your God like?” (note this is asked not because you necessarily care, but because it helps you to understand them and then tailor your communication to be more effective)
“Interesting…let me tell you what my God’s like…”
What I am proposing is not masonic, it’s just called basic communication between two human beings in order to show them the Truth.
By the way, what did St. Francis do exactly?
B
bear06
Guest
This ought to be good. I can’t wait to see how this is answered.
T
ThereCanBeOnly1
Guest
- Status