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MariaG
Guest
So the God of Abraham is not Holy?
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MariaG
Guest
It would seem that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is in disagreement with your personal view and the personal views of many in this thread apparently.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
Muslims worship One God, as do we. They worship the God of Abraham, as do we. The difference is they have an incomplete understanding of the God of Abraham.
Those who insist otherwise, are in direct contradiction to official Church teaching.
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MariaG
Guest
Again, I said I believe He was kissing the Quran not for the book itself but for the truth it does contain. Muslims worship the God of Abraham as do we. That kiss, in my opinion, was honoring the God of Abraham. This is the teaching of the CAtholic Church and not just my personal opinion.
But again, since none can read his heart, his motives for kissing it can only be an opinion. The difference is I see that JPII was a Godly man and believe he would never commit such a heinous sin as idolotry or any other nasty motives to his actions.
Since there is a reasonable explanation, if possibly misguided one due to the incorrect assumptions made about his actions, one that is not contrary to Our Faith, I prefer to believe the best of someone, and not the worst.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
The above is simply how a Catholic is supposed to react:
2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way." (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
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stmaria
Guest
Please explain the contradiction between the Catechism and the Word of God.
First epistle of John 4:2-3 “every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, while every spirit that fails to acknowledge him does not belong to God. Such is the spirit of the antichrist"
Muslims DO NOT acknowledge Jesus Christ as God.Therefore according to the word of God their religion is of the anti-Christ.
Jesus will be "mankind’s judge on the last day" Muslims do not believe this.They do not believe that Jesus will be mankind’s judge on the last day yet the Catechism says that they do.“with us they adore the one, merciful God,** mankind’s judge on the last day”**
Luke 21:27 “and they will see the **Son of Man **coming upon a cloud with great power and majesty”
Matthew 24:27 “For as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines even to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man”
Matthew 24:44 “Therefore you also must be ready, because at an hour that you do not expect, the Son of Man will come”
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MariaG
Guest
Please read carefully. As said before, as the Catechism states, Muslims worship the God of Abraham.
It/I am not saying anything more than that. It is not making declarations about what is wrong with them, but what is right. They worship the One true God, the God of Abraham.
Since your profile says you are Catholic, I assume you are not saying the Catechism is contradicting the word of God are you? If so, please explain how you think that is possible yet still remain Catholic?
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MariaG
Guest
Thanks for posting that
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palmas85
Guest
PROFESS to worship the one true God.
Just because they claim it, does not make it true. Since the Father, Son and Holy Spirit constitute God, and that idea is abhorrent to them, the God they worship cannot be the same. They expressly reject both the idea of the Trinity and of Christ being the Son of God born of a mortal woman. To them that is blasphemy.
You will note that THEY themselves say they do not worship the same God as the Christians. If they say they don’t, how can we say they do? To them we are little better than pagans at best and outright blasphemers at worst.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
What would be the appropriate thing for the pope to do if given a Koran as a gift?
Is it wrong for him to accept it at all? (presumably the pope has read the koran, I would hope at least, so he probably owns a copy).
Should he accept it, but refuse to say ‘Thank you’? Is saying thank you an acknowledgement that the book has value?
Should he have thrown it back in the face of the anti-Christ who gave it to him? That would make a strong statement for sure.
Perhaps kissing the book signified “I greatly appreciate that you are sharing your faith with me through giving me this book. I have great interest in understanding what this book says. This book is worth reading.” - all true statements.
Is it wrong for him to accept it at all? (presumably the pope has read the koran, I would hope at least, so he probably owns a copy).
Should he accept it, but refuse to say ‘Thank you’? Is saying thank you an acknowledgement that the book has value?
Should he have thrown it back in the face of the anti-Christ who gave it to him? That would make a strong statement for sure.
Perhaps kissing the book signified “I greatly appreciate that you are sharing your faith with me through giving me this book. I have great interest in understanding what this book says. This book is worth reading.” - all true statements.
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MariaG
Guest
Yes, they profess. What do they profess? To worship the God of Abraham. And this is the point. I believe it was the point of the kiss, honoring the God of Abraham whom we both profess to worship. And has been the thrust of my posts. If my leaving out the word “profess” has confused someone, I apologize.
But again, how does assuming the best of anothers actions, as the catechism states we should do, how does kissing the Quran, acknowledging the God of Abraham whom they profess to worship, how is any of that equated with sinfulness and idolatry as some here seem to believe?
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palmas85
Guest
Unless I am mistaken, the God of Abraham is also the God that we as Catholics worship in the Holy Trinity correct? I mean He did not change miraculously with the birth of Christ as man. No, Christ and the Holy Spirit are part and parcel of the Godhead. So, since they deny the existence of the Holy Trinity, they effectively deny the existence of the one true God. Ergo, their God, whoever he is, cannot be the same God that we worship no matter how politically correct the Church tried to make it sound.
I might be persuaded that their religion is some partially developed faith that one day might blossom into Christianity if they did not know of Christ. However Islam not only knows of Christ and the Holy Spirit, having been founded long after Christ died. But they explicitly reject any idea that Christ is God. Mohammed for his own personal reasons cut Christ and the Holy Spirit out of the equation. The entire faith is founded on a lie so why should any heed be paid to the book they use to worship with?
So obviously, kissing one shows respect and reverence to something that deserves neither.
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ThereCanBeOnly1
Guest
Liberals/Modernists will circumvent the truth to justify the actions and motives of JP2, even if it leads them to contradict what you have cited,(and Gospel, Church Doctors), in order to arrive at what is to them a logical interpretation of what a ‘Pope’ meant in his actions.
They speak of Truth in the Qur’an. The Biggest Untruth is the Denial of Jesus the Christ (GOD). This is pure deception and of the anti-Christ.
There is truth is Freemason, Satanic, and Hindu texts, etc.,
eg. dimensions of our pagan occult table are…
Is this true? Of course it may be.
Many modern Catholics are convinced that they and Muslims worship the same God.
Q:Is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the same as Allah? You are saying that Jesus who is God is Allah?
The biblical doctrine on the Trinity is correctly expressed in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds:
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Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20, 21).
The Son is the true God; any other god is an idol.
The Quran
Islam vehemently rejects the doctrine of God as revealed in Holy Scriptures.
Islam denies the Trinity:
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Certainly they disbelieve those who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve **(Sura 5:73).**
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son **(Sura 4:171).**
Code:
The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them **(Sura 9:29-30)**.
It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified **(Sura 19:35)**.
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The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle **(Sura 4)**.
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is Christ the son of Mary **(Sura 5:72).**
And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right (**Sura 5:116)**.
In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary **(Sura 5:17)**.
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1. The Trinity;
2. The Sonship of Christ;
3. The Deity of Christ.(Dr. Joesph Mizzi - justforcatholics.org/islam.htm))
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
Everyone here already knows that the Koran denies that Jesus is God, and denies the doctrine of the Trinity.
Abraham didn’t know about Jesus. Are you saying that Abraham worshipped a different God than you and I do? No, he just didn’t know all of the qualities and attributes of God. Same with the Muslims.
Abraham didn’t know about Jesus. Are you saying that Abraham worshipped a different God than you and I do? No, he just didn’t know all of the qualities and attributes of God. Same with the Muslims.
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THurifer2
Guest
Islam= False religionThe Koran= A book on false religion.
I am not going to call the pope out on this…he did it out of respect…Gee maybe he had his fingers crossed when he did it
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stmaria
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THurifer2
Guest
NO perhaps he should returna the Favor by giving in return the book of Gospels or the Bible…Maybe he could say I will take yours if you take mine.
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THurifer2
Guest
THis is NOT true…Islam is 6 centuries younger than Christianity. THey outright reject the deity of Christ in the Koran…They are FULLY informed of the CHristian GOd.
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ThereCanBeOnly1
Guest
Cannot compare the two situations. The God of Abraham is the Trinity.
Islam knows of the Christ and denies him.
Have you forgotten?:
**1 St John 2:22 **
Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son.
I have better questions for you:
Is the Most Holy Trinity = Allah?
Do you realize there have been Catholic martyrs because they refused to kiss the Qur’an and were beheaded?
In 2001 John Paul II kissed the Qur’an, the holy book of Islam, and said “I receive the word of God.” This was meant as a sign of respect. However what it does in fact is an affront to Christ and to His martyrs. For example, when the first Franciscan martyrs were killed by the Almohad caliph in Spain they were given a few options:
- They could convert to Islam
- They could marry some beautiful women the Sultan had brought before them, since celibacy is despised in Islam
- They just needed to kiss the Qur’an and they could return to their own country. The Franciscan protomartyrs, refused all of these, and were martyred for the faith.
(athanasiuscm.blogspot.com/2005/11/john-paul-ii-should-not-be-canonized.html)
Do you know of St Francis of Assisi?
*In 1219 Francis left, together with a few companions, on a pilgrimage of non-violence to Egypt. Crossing the lines between the sultan and the Crusaders in Damietta, he was received by the sultan Melek-el-Kamel. Francis challenged the Muslim scholars to a test of true religion by fire; but they retreated. When Francis proposed to enter the fire first and, if he left the fire unharmed, the sultan would have to recognize Christ as the true God, the sultan was so impressed that he allowed him to preach to his subjects. Though he didn’t succeed in converting the sultan, the last words of the sultan to Francis of Assisi were, according to Jacques de Vitry, bishop of Acre, in his book “Historia occidentalis, De Ordine et praedicatione Fratrum Minorum (1221)” : “Pray for me that God may deign to reveal to me that law and faith which is most pleasing to him.”.
*No Qur’an kissing here. Now this is a Saint.
Do you think this saint and others like the Great St Peter should have, if given the opportunity, Kiss the Qur’an or preach Christianity and Convert others?
Oh yeah:
Is the Most Holy Trinity = Allah?
JP2 :Mai Santo!
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ThereCanBeOnly1
Guest
You have got to be kidding? are you and JKirk for real?Thanks for posting that
Ridiculous. You are using a text promulgated and corrected by John Paul II to prove his actions.
Pure and utter deception.
Summa Theologica
SS Q12 A1
It belongs to faith not only that the heart should believe, but also that external words and deeds should bear witness to the inward faith, for confession is an act of faith. On this way too, certain external words or deeds pertain to unbelief, in so far as they are signs of unbelief, even as a sign of health is said itself to be healthy. Now although the authority quoted may be understood as referring to every kind of apostate, yet it applies most truly to an apostate from the faith. For since faith is the first foundation of things to be hoped for, and since, without faith it is “impossible to please God”; when once faith is removed, man retains nothing that may be useful for the obtaining of eternal salvation, for which reason it is written (Proverbs 6:12): “A man that is an apostate, an unprofitable man”: because faith is the life of the soul, according to Romans 1:17: “The just man liveth by faith.” Therefore, just as when the life of the body is taken away, man’s every member and part loses its due disposition, so when the life of justice, which is by faith, is done away, disorder appears in all his members. First, in his mouth, whereby chiefly his mind stands revealed; secondly, in his eyes; thirdly, in the instrument of movement; fourthly, in his will, which tends to evil. The result is that “he sows discord,” endeavoring to sever others from the faith even as he severed himself.
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
I understand what you’re saying… their idea of God is very different from ours. They deny that Christ is one of the persons of the Trinity. So, in a sense, ‘their god’ is very different from ‘our God’.
But in a different way, if two people address their prayer to “The Creator of Heaven and Earth”, they might both have very different ideas of what that God is like. But in a sense, they are worshipping the same God.
I would say that Muslims and Christians both offer worship to the Creator, but that we have different ideas of the creator. We’re right, they’re wrong. But I still think it’s fair to say that we both worship God.
But I can see your point.
But in a different way, if two people address their prayer to “The Creator of Heaven and Earth”, they might both have very different ideas of what that God is like. But in a sense, they are worshipping the same God.
I would say that Muslims and Christians both offer worship to the Creator, but that we have different ideas of the creator. We’re right, they’re wrong. But I still think it’s fair to say that we both worship God.
But I can see your point.
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