What is your favorite proof for God?

[Andy_III]

God appearing before every human being on earth and shaking their hand at the exact same moment and revealing a secret only known to the human in question and then taking the person to heaven for 5 minutes…yep, that’d be enough proof for me that God is actually real.

And if that actually happened, but you weren’t born yet, would you believe it when people told you about it? If not, that is exactly what SCGiants was talking about.

 

[Andy_III]

Free will is off-topic for this thread. Our moderator has been lenient, but would we not be more respectful of forum rules if we actually followed them? Could you start a new thread on Free Will, referencing prior conversations if useful? Let me know (PM) if you do so, else I’ll miss it.

Thanks Greylorn for suggesting the move to a new thread. For those following the discussion on free will, it is continued here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6689366#post6689366

 

[Zatzat]

And if that actually happened, but you weren’t born yet, would you believe it when people told you about it? If not, that is exactly what SCGiants was talking about.

…and then repeat said meeting with everyone, every 6 months for all of time. There, problem solved…an entire planet, all 6.5 billion people would be Christians, instead of the 2 billion or so…

 

[greylorn]

Here’s another one. In quantum mechanical state functions, the coefficients are complex numbers and thus may include the imaginary number i= √-1. Since conceiving the imaginary number, i, required a human mind to abstract it from its real concepts, it thus follows that the laws of nature require a mind to correctly resolve the quantum mechanical interference patterns.

This mind that underlies the workings of the natural world is understood by all men to be God.

As an example of imaginary coefficients, consider this example from Roger Penrose’s Shadows of the Mind (pages 260-262). See image. Photons approach a mirror at a 45º angle, along a path A, which may transmit at 0º along path B or reflect at 90º along path C. According to the laws of quantum mechanics, the reflected light undergos a net phase shift by a quarter wavelength and is multiplied by the factor i= √-1. Along path B and C, the light encounters new mirrors at 45º angles which direct the light from path B to path D and path C to path E to a final mirror completing the square at a 45º angle. The light may thereafter travel along paths G or F. Now here are the mathematics of the state transitions:

|A> → |B> + i |C>
|B> + i |C> → i|D> + i(i |E>) = |D> - |E>
i|D> - |E> → i(|G> + i |F>) - (|F> + i |G>) =-2|F>

And thus, because of the imaginary coefficients, path G is not observed in the final outcome.

So we see that quantum interference patterns require imaginary coefficients and hence a mind to solve its equations. Since the mathematics of quantum mechanics cannot be represented with real concepts, we see that nature operates using the imaginative faculty of some Being, Whom all men understand to be God.

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com

Ryan,
It’s been a few decades since my last formal QM course, and I don’t understand much of what you’ve written. Christ said something about not casting thy pearls before swine, and this may have been an example of what he meant— good practical advice.

Nonetheless I appreciate your position, which I’d name, An Argument from Obfuscation, only because few can follow it. I appreciate your willingness to use the power of a first rate mind in defense of traditional religious beliefs. Unless you are learning/practicing physics from a Jesuit College, maintenance of your beliefs will require ongoing courage.

I’ll focus on your final remark, which is one you echo in other posts, “…the imaginative faculty of some Being, Whom all men understand to be God.”

Consider redirecting your focus upon physics details to the meanings implied in your final phrase. All men do not have a common understanding of the nature of God. Admittedly, the Christian-Muslim-Ba’h’ai religionists are aligned on the idea that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and has always existed. But I’m not, which makes me a man who does not share this concept.

I believe that we live in a created universe, but not a universe created by the God of Christianity. Years ago when I studied physics I found some contradictions between fundamental Christian belief and the laws of the universe. I interpreted these in the way a scientist would, although I am not one.

When a good scientist finds a contradiction between the theories he believes and incoming data from the physical universe, he either abandons or corrects his theories. I chose not to abandon my belief in a created universe (after taking a course in probability theory, the inherent absurdity of Darwinism had become evident). However, I did look into the God concept.

You might do the same. While your arguments favor the concept of an intelligent Being behind creation, they do not speak to the nature or the singularity of that Being. Get back to work.

 

[Andy_III]

…and then repeat said meeting with everyone, every 6 months for all of time. There, problem solved…an entire planet, all 6.5 billion people would be Christians, instead of the 2 billion or so…

:sigh: 6 months is a long time, and some would still not believe. Some would believe but then doubt 3 months in. Care to add another stipulation? How about once a week? Or everyday? Maybe visiting heaven for an hour instead of five minutes? How about more than a handshake? Maybe you get to take some home?

The funny part of this conversation is that it is happening.

 

[Zatzat]

:sigh: 6 months is a long time, and some would still not believe. Some would believe but then doubt 3 months in. Care to add another stipulation? How about once a week? Or everyday? Maybe visiting heaven for an hour instead of five minutes? How about more than a handshake? Maybe you get to take some home?

The funny part of this conversation is that it is happening.

Nope, no more stipulations…God just has to show up as stated and everyone would be believe.

Problem solved, everyones a Christian.

 

[petitsourice]

:sigh: 6 months is a long time, and some would still not believe. Some would believe but then doubt 3 months in. Care to add another stipulation? How about once a week? Or everyday? Maybe visiting heaven for an hour instead of five minutes? How about more than a handshake? Maybe you get to take some home?

The funny part of this conversation is that it is happening.

Best response to the age old question, “Why doesn’t God just come out with miracles and show us He is real?”

“Why don’t you ask him and see what he says?”

Some people will never believe without fire and brimstone coming out of the skies on command. Why has God chosen to not be at our beck and call? I don’t know. However the age of miracles ended 2010 years ago.

 

[Zatzat]

“Why don’t you ask him and see what he says?”

I did, no one answered.

Some people will never believe without fire and brimstone coming out of the skies on command. Why has God chosen to not be at our beck and call? I don’t know. However the age of miracles ended 2010 years ago.

A handful of reported miracles occurring in a tiny geographic region of the world during a very short period of time can hardly be called ’ the age of miracles’.

 

[donsnow]

Best response to the age old question, “Why doesn’t God just come out with miracles and show us He is real?”

“Why don’t you ask him and see what he says?”

Some people will never believe without fire and brimstone coming out of the skies on command. Why has God chosen to not be at our beck and call? I don’t know. However the age of miracles ended 2010 years ago.

Miracles have been happening all along. Check out the “Lives of the Saints”. Also, one time after church, outside, I heard a woman comment, “I’m a miracle.”

She was right.

In this day and age, every Christian is a miracle.

 

[petitsourice]

Miracles have been happening all along. Check out the “Lives of the Saints”. Also, one time after church, outside, I heard a woman comment, “I’m a miracle.”

She was right.

In this day and age, every Christian is a miracle.

Touché. Very good. Forgot about all of those. Many, many miracles reported over the centuries. Just not always the type people want. I am certain God has His reasons for not keeping an office in Washington.

 

[Zatzat]

In this day and age, every Christian is a miracle.

Miracles, from the dictionary are;

An effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

A Christian, one of some 2 billion on the planet, is as far a cry from a miracle as one can get.

 

[Andy_III]

Miracles, from the dictionary are;

An effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

A Christian, one of some 2 billion on the planet, is as far a cry from a miracle as one can get.

The definition you quote says nothing about it being rare. Extraordinary does not mean rare. And each Christian is that way through powers that surpass all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause - the Incarnation.

Also, remember that life itself is a miracle by the same definition, yet you see life everywhere. Perhaps that is because self-replicating miracles tend to become less rare over time.

 

[Andy_III]

I did, no one answered.

Perhaps you weren’t listening. Happens all the time. Really easy to do. Try this: for the next month, pray everyday that God shows you that He exists. See what happens, but don’t plan out exactly what you expect to see and ingore everything else.

A handful of reported miracles occurring in a tiny geographic region of the world during a very short period of time can hardly be called ’ the age of miracles’.

Most people would interpret several occurances within a small geographic region that preceded cases in a larger geographical region as an indication of the source. Just ask the Center for Disease Control.

 

[Zatzat]

Perhaps you weren’t listening. Happens all the time. Really easy to do. Try this: for the next month, pray everyday that God shows you that He exists. See what happens, but don’t plan out exactly what you expect to see and ingore everything else.

I did, for about 30 years…no one answered.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I did, for about 30 years…no one answered.

Perhaps you just didn’t realize he was answering.

 

[Zatzat]

Perhaps you just didn’t realize he was answering.

No, I am certain that no one answered…ever.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

No, I am certain that no one answered…ever.

Hm.

Maybe it was a dark night of the soul. Many great Saints have gone through a similar situation to what you’re describing, and yes, even for the length of time you’re describing.

 

[antunesaa]

No, I am certain that no one answered…ever.

So why do you call yourself “enquirer” and take the time and trouble to give us at CAF the joy of your presence?

 

[donsnow]

Touché. Very good. Forgot about all of those. Many, many miracles reported over the centuries. Just not always the type people want. I am certain God has His reasons for not keeping an office in Washington.

I should hope so. Not too much credibility there, at the moment.

 

[donsnow]

Miracles, from the dictionary are;

An effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

A Christian, one of some 2 billion on the planet, is as far a cry from a miracle as one can get.

I mean, Christians like Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr., etc. Those people are miracles and worked miracles. There’s lots of unknown Christians like that, feeding the hungry, comforting the ill, visiting the incarcerated, giving clothes to those without clothes and giving drink to the thirsty.