What is your Opinion of The Mormon Mirage by Latayne C.Scott

[Catholic20064]

Rebecca, if you can show me one book written about any faith by a non-member of that faith that is fair, accurate and objective, I would allow your point.

But there isn’t any. It’s not possible—and the inquirer has no way of knowing WHERE that book is incorrect, or how slanted the bias is. He will then have to go to the believers to check things out anyway.

C’mon…since when is it ever a good idea to go ABC plumbing for an opinion about CBS plumbing, the competing company down the street?

Before I became Catholic I read both non-Catholic and Catholic books about Catholicism. I don’t recall any discouragement from Catholics to read non-Catholic material. I read all about the whore of Babylon, worshiping Mary, etc. from the non-Catholic viewpoint and then read the Catholic response which made it plain that Catholics didn’t worship Mary and the entire argument about the Catholic Church being the whore of Babylon was without merit. I think you should read both sides of the story to find out the truth – if Latter-day Saints can defend their religion against attack with merit then so much the better for them. We Catholics can defend ours against non-Catholic opinion and LDS should expect to do the same with their potential converts.

 

[dianaiad]

Before I became Catholic I read both non-Catholic and Catholic books about Catholicism. I don’t recall any discouragement from Catholics to read non-Catholic material.

No? Well, that’s nice.

I read all about the whore of Babylon, worshiping Mary, etc. from the non-Catholic viewpoint and then read the Catholic response which made it plain that Catholics didn’t worship Mary and the entire argument about the Catholic Church being the whore of Babylon was without merit. I think you should read both sides of the story to find out the truth – if Latter-day Saints can defend their religion against attack with merit then so much the better for them. We Catholics can defend ours against non-Catholic opinion and LDS should expect to do the same with their potential converts.

Oh, we do…and we do it well.

However, the whole idea behind anti-publications is suspect. I can’t remember…was it you?–who wrote that the reason those things are written is to discourage people from investigating and joining the church (whatever church it is being targeted.)

That one caught me up short. I mean, I KNEW that, of course, but every time I hear it so blithely admitted I am forcibly reminded about the guy who steadied the ark.

Are these people so afraid that the truth of God and His gospel isn’t quite good enough? That in service to the truth, it’s permissible, even admirable, to do such dishonorable things…that they have to go breaking the rules to aid Him? All the lies that are printed, the twisted interpretations, the wild stories, the accusations and insulting language—if their truth is so shining bright, why do folks need to lie to keep people from comparing it to something else—without third party interpretation?

What, I keep wanting to ask these folks…‘do you really think people are that stupid? If they are, why on earth would you want to keep them?’

One of the reasons I AM still LDS—or rather, one of the reasons I have determined that so many other religions are absolutely NOT truth, is that I can’t imagine any ‘true’ church allowing this. Avoiding officially sanctioned anti-behavior may not prove a belief system to be true, but in my opinion any religion that goes after another faith “Jack Chick” or “Inside Mormonism” style has a major credibility problem. Huge.

It’s a real issue with me.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

One of the reasons I AM still LDS—or rather, one of the reasons I have determined that so many other religions are absolutely NOT truth, is that I can’t imagine any ‘true’ church allowing this. Avoiding officially sanctioned anti-behavior may not prove a belief system to be true, but in my opinion any religion that goes after another faith “Jack Chick” or “Inside Mormonism” style has a major credibility problem. Huge.

It’s a real issue with me.

I understand your frustration with the genre of books, but I think you’re misrepresenting this books, etc. It’s not one “religion” going after another. It’s members of one religion trying to evangelize in a way that you don’t find especially credible or effective. The fact that a member of a certain faith uses this approach to advance what they believe is true doesn’t say anything about whether what they’re affirming is or isn’t, in fact, true. It just means that sometimes there are bad advocates for the Faith (although anyone reading the New Testament already knows that).

And to the extent that Catholicism says anything on the matter, we simply say with Augustine, a Doctor of the Church, “God does not need my lie.” If you have to stretch the truth to make your case, you’re not making the right case.

 

[dianaiad]

I understand your frustration with the genre of books, but I think you’re misrepresenting this books, etc. It’s not one “religion” going after another. It’s members of one religion trying to evangelize in a way that you don’t find especially credible or effective. The fact that a member of a certain faith uses this approach to advance what they believe is true doesn’t say anything about whether what they’re affirming is or isn’t, in fact, true. It just means that sometimes there are bad advocates for the Faith (although anyone reading the New Testament already knows that).

And to the extent that Catholicism says anything on the matter, we simply say with Augustine, a Doctor of the Church, “God does not need my lie.” If you have to stretch the truth to make your case, you’re not making the right case.

I truly like what St. Augustine said.

But…right here, on the sidebar of the page your post appears on, are these being advertised:

Beginning Apologetics 9: How To Answer Muslims
Jim Burnham

Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses
Jason Evert

The Bible and the Qu’ran
Father Jacques Jomier

You will not see anything even remotely similar on any Latter-day Saint site, aimed at other religions. It simply will not happen. The closest we come are publications that specifically answer publications like the above. “The Truth about the Godmakers” is a specific response to “The Godmakers,” for instance. I got curious, and went to the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board (the LDS equivalent of ‘CAF’) and went to the subforum that is dedicated to discussions with members of other faiths.

…and nope, no such advertisements there.

I went to “Aquinas & More” Catholic goods (bookstore online) And found “The Mormon Challenge” “Inside Mormonism,” “When Mormons Call,” “Beginning Apologetics 2 How to answer Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons” (oh, now that’s just wrong, guys. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons don’t agree on a whole lot: how can one canned answer deal with both?)

On the other hand, the Catholic Online Bookstore doesn’t seem to have any of the above. That’s encouraging.

The Deseret Bookstore (the LDS Church ‘as close to being the official bookstore as you can get’ bookstore)

Oh. I forgot this one. “Know your Religions” by Alonzo L. Gaskill, is ’ A Comparative Look at Mormonism and Catholicism."

I got truly upset when I saw that…and then I looked inside. Guess who wrote the foreward? Father Patrick L. Labelle, (the director of the Catholic Community at Stanford University and a true believing Catholic scholar and priest).So even if on first blush it looks like exactly the sort of book I am against–turns out that it’s not. It’s straight forward comparison; a topic is introduced; the Mormon explains the LDS view point and the Catholic explains his. Neither one attempts to browbeat or argue with the other.

I wouldn’t have any problems at all with these sorts of books if they all did THAT.

There is no book regarding Jehovah’s Witnesses at a Deseret bookstore.

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Catholic20064. I hope you are having a good Sunday.

Finrock and other LDS:

How can any doctrine by non-essential if the LDS Church teaches it is true? That seems like nonsense to me.

Thank you for the question. There are many things that are doctrine, but which are non-essential to salvation (what I mean by non-essential is that knowledge of these things are not required in order to receive the fulness of salvation). For instance, Kolob is doctrine, but knowledge of it is wholly unnecessary for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom (I mean by this exaltation). I could live my whole life and never know about Kolob and I would be perfectly fine in the afterlife. The doctrine of Heavenly Mother is another non-essential doctrine. Knowledge of this doctrine isn’t required for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom. These are just a couple of examples of non-essential doctrine.

What is essential for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom are the fundamental principles and ordinances of the Gospel (faith in Jesus Christ, repetence, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost), temple ordinances, and enduring to the end in righteousness. For a more complete understanding of what is necessary for exaltation you can read the chapter on exaltation from Gospel Principles (note that nowhere in there does it require belief in Kolob, belief in Heavenly Mother, or any of these other periphery doctrines that our critics so often focus on): Requirements for Exaltation.

This doesn’t mean that learning the non-essential doctrines are not useful. We read in Doctrine and Covenants that:

“Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come” (D&C 130:18-19).

As other’s have pointed out, the Catholic church has similar stances in many things. Whether something is a “new revelation” is ultimately irrelevant to the question of it’s essentiality for exaltation.

I hope this was helpful in answering your question.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Catholic20064]

Ultimately, I don’t think Mormons can defend their faith, especially with regards to the Book of Mormon. That’s why “anti” (their term) literature is so disturbing to them.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

So you think an LDS can simply reject the doctrine of Heavenly Mother without any problems? Didn’t the recent “Proclamation of the Family” specifically state we were created by heavenly parents? Here is a quote from it:

That pretty much defines a belief in Heavenly Mother in my opinion.

Sorry, I hadn’t realize you were talking about Heavenly Mother in general. I thought you were talking about the number of Heavenly Mothers. The former is indeed LDS doctrine, the latter is LDS speculation per the individual.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You will not see anything even remotely similar on any Latter-day Saint site, aimed at other religions. It simply will not happen. The closest we come are publications that specifically answer publications like the above. “The Truth about the Godmakers” is a specific response to “The Godmakers,” for instance. I got curious, and went to the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board (the LDS equivalent of ‘CAF’) and went to the subforum that is dedicated to discussions with members of other faiths.

There is no sub-forum at MADB for the discussion of other faiths. And, people there are ready and willing to point you to any material such as what you are finding offensive here.

…and nope, no such advertisements there.

I went to “Aquinas & More” Catholic goods (bookstore online) And found “The Mormon Challenge” “Inside Mormonism,” “When Mormons Call,” “Beginning Apologetics 2 How to answer Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons” (oh, now that’s just wrong, guys. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons don’t agree on a whole lot: how can one canned answer deal with both?)

Seriously Diana, your entire religion is founded on debunking other religions. Pick up any apologetic material put out by Mormons. It is all “anti” something.

On the other hand, the Catholic Online Bookstore doesn’t seem to have any of the above. That’s encouraging.

The Deseret Bookstore (the LDS Church ‘as close to being the official bookstore as you can get’ bookstore)

Oh. I forgot this one. “Know your Religions” by Alonzo L. Gaskill, is ’ A Comparative Look at Mormonism and Catholicism."

“The Great Apostasy” by Talmage? You seem to like to keep this one out of your posts. MADB was touting some book or other not too long ago, that was specifically aimed at Catholic doctrine.

There is no book regarding Jehovah’s Witnesses at a Deseret bookstore.

That is because JW is not the “whore of Babylon”, as Talmage stated. Your apologists, apostles, and missionaries target CATHOLICS. Your tactics are more insiduous, the little nagging, needling, sow doubt, spread false doctrine. Which is nothing more than a tactic of undermining a persons faith. At least the authors of the books you find offensive have the forthright and just plain honesty to spell it out like it is, and not pretend to be doing something else.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I truly like what St. Augustine said.

But…right here, on the sidebar of the page your post appears on, are these being advertised:

Beginning Apologetics 9: How To Answer Muslims
Jim Burnham

Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses
Jason Evert

The Bible and the Qu’ran
Father Jacques Jomier

That certainly points out that there is a bias, but it doesn’t address whether the information in such literature is accurate. Your wholesale dismissal of the book itself without reading it simply due to the source is just as bad as someone else blindly accepting whatever it might say simply due to the source.

I went to “Aquinas & More” Catholic goods (bookstore online) And found “The Mormon Challenge” “Inside Mormonism,” “When Mormons Call,” “Beginning Apologetics 2 How to answer Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons” (oh, now that’s just wrong, guys. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons don’t agree on a whole lot: how can one canned answer deal with both?)

How do you know they gave only “one canned answer to deal with both”? There’s a book out there called “The Four Major Cults: Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the Mormons”. That isn’t to mean the author has conflated the four. He actually addresses each religion by parts. Now considering the accusatory title, I’d certainly be skeptical of the book, but I wouldn’t completely dismiss just because it’s critical and written by a non-member.

On the other hand, the Catholic Online Bookstore doesn’t seem to have any of the above. That’s encouraging.

The Deseret Bookstore (the LDS Church ‘as close to being the official bookstore as you can get’ bookstore)

Oh. I forgot this one. “Know your Religions” by Alonzo L. Gaskill, is ’ A Comparative Look at Mormonism and Catholicism."

I got truly upset when I saw that…and then I looked inside. Guess who wrote the foreward? Father Patrick L. Labelle, (the director of the Catholic Community at Stanford University and a true believing Catholic scholar and priest).So even if on first blush it looks like exactly the sort of book I am against–turns out that it’s not. It’s straight forward comparison; a topic is introduced; the Mormon explains the LDS view point and the Catholic explains his. Neither one attempts to browbeat or argue with the other.

I wouldn’t have any problems at all with these sorts of books if they all did THAT.

Of course you wouldn’t because such a book is explanatory and not critical.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Dianaiad: I’m curious if you’re consistent with your position, namely if you follow it with respect to other forms of ideology which aren’t religious in nature. Do you only get your information about liberal politics and the Democratic Party from liberal/Democratic sources? If you were to follow (intellectually that is) the alternative medicine crowd like I do, would you only get your information about homeopathy and acupuncture from homeopaths and acupuncturists? Are doctors who actively advocate evidence-based medicine disqualified from responding?

 

[dianaiad]

There is no sub-forum at MADB for the discussion of other faiths. And, people there are ready and willing to point you to any material such as what you are finding offensive here.

I’m looking at it right now. The third subforum on the list is: New Posts LDS Dialogue & Discussion
For dialogue between LDS and those of other religious groups.

That’s about as close as we come. That there isn’t a forum devoted specifically to the discussion OF ‘non-Mormon religions’ is right along with the idea that we don’t publish anti-stuff against other faiths.

As to people being willing to “point to” anti literature, I’m sure there are. I’m also sure that those people are all non or anti Mormon, because there is no Mormon sponsored anti- other-religion publications to point TO.

Seriously Diana, your entire religion is founded on debunking other religions. Pick up any apologetic material put out by Mormons. It is all “anti” something.

Seriously, Rebecca, it is not. that we believe there was an apostasy simply provides the reason we believe the church needed to be restored. From that idea comes the emphasis upon what WAS restored; we do not have to, nor do we, go around 'debunking other religions." What we do is present what OUR beliefs are. Those who listen can compare it with their own beliefs far better than we can–it is an utter waste of our time.

“The Great Apostasy” by Talmage? You seem to like to keep this one out of your posts. MADB was touting some book or other not too long ago, that was specifically aimed at Catholic doctrine.

Indeed? Can you remember what the title was? “The Great Apostasy,” by the way, isn’t critical of the Catholics. It addresses what WE believe needed to be restored. It addresses specific doctrines that are held by many different faiths–which are NOT NAMED.

That is because JW is not the “whore of Babylon”, as Talmage stated. Your apologists, apostles, and missionaries target CATHOLICS. Your tactics are more insiduous, the little nagging, needling, sow doubt, spread false doctrine. Which is nothing more than a tactic of undermining a persons faith. At least the authors of the books you find offensive have the forthright and just plain honesty to spell it out like it is, and not pretend to be doing something else.

Rebecca, James Talmage did not call Catholicism the ‘whore of Babylon’ in “The Great apostasy.” Anywhere. I have before me the full text of it, searchable—you can go there.

In fact, Talmage doesn’t call Catholics or Protestants that anywhere, though the internet is full of claims that they did. Actually, the quote they are (and you are) using comes from Orson Pratt (over 170 years ago) in “The Seer” and is taken out of context. He was referring, as pretty much everybody did in those days in bible thumping speeches to the two types of 'churches…" either the Church of Christ or the Church of the Devil, or the 'whore of Babylon."

What keeps getting left OUT of that breathless denunciation of the quote (which, by the way, assigned both Catholics AND Protestants to Babylonhood…) is that the speech also clarified that it is a personal choice; there are many Catholics who belong to the ‘church of Christ’ because of their faith in Christ, and Mormons who belong to the church of the devil (Whore of Babylon) because of their choices.

Rebecca, you know better than this.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I truly like what St. Augustine said.

But…right here, on the sidebar of the page your post appears on, are these being advertised:

Beginning Apologetics 9: How To Answer Muslims
Jim Burnham

Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses
Jason Evert

The Bible and the Qu’ran
Father Jacques Jomier

I don’t see anything wrong with these titles, JW’s Muslims and LDS beliefs challenge our faith. And with the JW’s LDS and SDA’a the members knock on doors and challenge the faith of Catholics in their homes. Each of these 3 propose unique doctrine in opposition to Catholic doctrine. These books may explore some of the challenges presented and help Catholics understand their own faith and stand up to the challenges presented. Quite frankly I don’t see what wrong with giving Catholics tools to argue “the great apostasy” after all your church spent it’s time and money on developing the books used by your missionaries not to mention the recruiting, training and deploying of your missionaries. “When Mormons Call” or what ever the title is rather small potatoes compared to the concerted effort on the part of the LDS church.

You will not see anything even remotely similar on any Latter-day Saint site, aimed at other religions. It simply will not happen. The closest we come are publications that specifically answer publications like the above. “The Truth about the Godmakers” is a specific response to “The Godmakers,” for instance. I got curious, and went to the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board (the LDS equivalent of ‘CAF’) and went to the subforum that is dedicated to discussions with members of other faiths.

…and nope, no such advertisements there.

Well MAADB was spun off of the FAIR site, Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research. This whole site is dedicated to offering apologetics and refuting “mainstream Christianity” in all it’s beliefs.

I went to “Aquinas & More” Catholic goods (bookstore online) And found “The Mormon Challenge” “Inside Mormonism,” “When Mormons Call,” “Beginning Apologetics 2 How to answer Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons” (oh, now that’s just wrong, guys. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons don’t agree on a whole lot: how can one canned answer deal with both?)

On the other hand, the Catholic Online Bookstore doesn’t seem to have any of the above. That’s encouraging.

The Deseret Bookstore (the LDS Church ‘as close to being the official bookstore as you can get’ bookstore)

You do realize that neither of the stores you list are in any way “official book stores of the Catholic church”

 

[RebeccaJ]

Seriously, Rebecca, it is not. that we believe there was an apostasy simply provides the reason we believe the church needed to be restored. From that idea comes the emphasis upon what WAS restored; we do not have to, nor do we, go around 'debunking other religions." What we do is present what OUR beliefs are. Those who listen can compare it with their own beliefs far better than we can–it is an utter waste of our time.

It never ceases to amaze me that Mormons have such a short memory. I was raised LDS Diana, I was taught in Sunday School and seminary that the Roman Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon. I had a class that was to teach people to be teachers. In that class, I was taught the same. I can’t tell you how many times I was taught this because it was a pervasive teaching, not just some one off opinion of one or two people.

It wasn’t until McConkie’s embarrassing publication of this doctrine in his book, “Mormon Doctrine”, that your church was all, OMG! we have never taught that.

Such lies.

The very first missionary lesson your missionaries dish out, teaches the “great apostasy”, which is nothing but the very thing you are saying “never happens in Mormonsim”. Your leaders, teach very vocally against Catholic doctrines, calling our beliefs, faith, and even the One True God, “false doctrines”.

And here you are, shocked, to find out that people would have the complete audacity to answer what your church teaches against every other church on the planet.

Simply, amazing. And even, to do this at a CATHOLIC site.

You can drop the pretense. I know what the Mormon church teaches. I know what Mormons believe.

Indeed? Can you remember what the title was? “The Great Apostasy,” by the way, isn’t critical of the Catholics. It addresses what WE believe needed to be restored. It addresses specific doctrines that are held by many different faiths–which are NOT NAMED.

I have nothing more to say to you about this. If you can’t understand that preaching against Catholic doctrine does not need a response, then what more is there to say?

Rebecca, James Talmage did not call Catholicism the ‘whore of Babylon’ in “The Great apostasy.” Anywhere. I have before me the full text of it, searchable—you can go there.

In fact, Talmage doesn’t call Catholics or Protestants that anywhere, though the internet is full of claims that they did. Actually, the quote they are (and you are) using comes from Orson Pratt (over 170 years ago) in “The Seer” and is taken out of context. He was referring, as pretty much everybody did in those days in bible thumping speeches to the two types of 'churches…" either the Church of Christ or the Church of the Devil, or the 'whore of Babylon."

What keeps getting left OUT of that breathless denunciation of the quote (which, by the way, assigned both Catholics AND Protestants to Babylonhood…) is that the speech also clarified that it is a personal choice; there are many Catholics who belong to the ‘church of Christ’ because of their faith in Christ, and Mormons who belong to the church of the devil (Whore of Babylon) because of their choices.

Rebecca, you know better than this.

Oh, it was meant Catholic AND Protestants. That is just a whole lot better now, isn’t it.

You are preaching the latest “PC” version that your church puts out. Tell me Diana, what testifies to you personally of a “great apostasy”? Rhetorical question, as I’ve seen you type enough anti-Catholic propaganda to know that you understand, quite clearly, what your church’s stance is.

I’ve seen you twist and turn what people write in order to suite your need to disprove. What you come up with, are things that no Catholic has taught or ever believed. You are so immersed in deceit that you are able to come up with more, all on your own. You are drowning, and don’t even seem to realize it.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I have had to correct a couple of Catholics on things, the Immaculate Conception for one, so I’m not convinced all believers know doctrine. But when it comes to how the doctrines and beliefs affect the everyday lives of members former members, happy or bitter, present a side of their religion that starry eyed believers won’t give you.

Those Catholics still understood THEIR beliefs better than anybody else…and since you are Catholic, correcting Catholics is acceptable. I don’t think you would have reacted well if some bitter ex-Catholic '‘educated’ them (or you) on your ‘true beliefs’ regarding the Immaculate Conception. Jack Chick, for instance…

I’m not talking about people like Jack Chick I’m talking about people who identify themselves as being of a particular religion and don’t believe or misunderstand the things their respective churches teach. Like the Immaculate Conception in my case or the guy on NOM who believes in “Blood Atonement” (which I’ve been told is not LDS doctrine but is of course beyond even speculation in my belief) in which there are some sins which Christ’s sacrifice can not atone for.

You might want to think about how that works.

I said:
*“But when it comes to how the doctrines and beliefs affect the everyday lives of members former members, happy or bitter, present a side of their religion that starry eyed believers won’t give you.”
*

And I stick to it former members know what it is like to “live” a particular religion. Where the doctrine hits the world so to speak. For instance I have a lot of trouble with JW’s in this area.

 

[Latayne]

I’m happy that I have been able to obtain internet even out in the wilds where we are camping, and have been very interested in how this discussion has progressed.

If you want to know what the LDS Church has historically believed – and since it is from one of their scriptures, must continue to believe about all other churches but their own – read chapters 13 and 14 of 1 Nephi (the Book of Mormon.) Here’s a link to the official LDS site: Perhaps that will put to rest that issue.

Secondly, my novel Latter-day Cipher addresses the issue that most Mormons today don’t want to admit that their “eternal gospel” has changed dramatically. In fact, it deals specifically with one Mormon’s frustration that the LDS Church won’t stand up and say that the Catholic Church is the “great and abominable church” as it always claimed. (I too took Book of Mormon classes at BYU and was taught that the Catholic Church was “the great and abominable church.”)

Secondly, tomorrow 26 sites on the Internet will be reviewing both Latter-day Cipher and The Mormon Mirage. Now, since I have no control over reviewers they may say good or bad things about my books. Here is a list of sites. Since to my knowledge only two out of the 26 are former Mormons, there ought to be a pretty good representation of what interested people think of the two books. (Maybe…even… a Consumer Reports of the two books?)

Also – see below two additional blogs/sites I founded and maintain. Please notice that in general they have absolutely nothing to do with Mormonism. Again, although Mormons would like to portray me as rabidly chasing them all my life, it’s simply not true.

Latayne C Scott
www.latayne.com
novelmatters.blogspot.com
www.representationalresources.com

 

[dianaiad]

I don’t see anything wrong with these titles,

I know. That’s rather the point.

JW’s Muslims and LDS beliefs challenge our faith

How can someone else’s freedom of religion challenge YOUR faith? It is to unthinkable that someone else believe something different than you do–is your own faith so uncertain that it is not validated unless everybody else agrees with you?

. And with the JW’s LDS and SDA’a the members knock on doors and challenge the faith of Catholics in their homes.

I just had a visit from the Jehovah’s Witnesses that was very funny in a sad sort of way: I told them I was a Mormon and invited them in for a cold glass of water–it was 101 degrees outside and they were dressed waaaaay up in ‘go to meeting’ clothes. They must have been suffocating! Anyway, as soon as they heard ‘Mormon,’ nothing on the planet would have forced them into my home, not even a cold glass of water. He handed me a mini-pamphlet about how the world was going to end in the morning, and left.

Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons share very few beliefs, you realize–and our techniques at the doors differ, too.*Mormons *want to teach you what WE believe. We don’t hand out pamphlets telling you how awful, cultish and satanic YOURS is.

Each of these 3 propose unique doctrine in opposition to Catholic doctrine. These books may explore some of the challenges presented and help Catholics understand their own faith and stand up to the challenges presented. Quite frankly I don’t see what wrong with giving Catholics tools to argue “the great apostasy” after all your church spent it’s time and money on developing the books used by your missionaries not to mention the recruiting, training and deploying of your missionaries. “When Mormons Call” or what ever the title is rather small potatoes compared to the concerted effort on the part of the LDS church.

What we publish is to educate people on what we believe. That’s it. What those three books offer is…what other faiths believe, and frankly, (unless they are written the way “Know your Religions…about Catholicism” is, that is, the part about Catholicism is written by a CATHOLIC who knows what’s what, and the goal is NOT to arm Mormons against Catholicism, but to keep them from doing something stupid—like assuming that Catholics worship statues)

Well MAADB was spun off of the FAIR site, Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research. This whole site is dedicated to offering apologetics and refuting “mainstream Christianity” in all it’s beliefs.

I know the FAIR site. Since you know it as well, perhaps you can show me where, anywhere on that site, anybody attacks another religion? FAIR has two aims: examining LDS beliefs, and defending them against attacks by others. Every single article on FAIR that addresses another religion is in direct response to an attack BY that religion; not the fact that they believe something else, but that they have written something critical of Mormonism.

You do realize that neither of the stores you list are in any way “official book stores of the Catholic church”

The church isn’t disowning them–and the authors of the books they sell are devout catholics (sometimes priests) who are not at all being counseled not to do this sort of thing.

All this said, I do have to say that the Catholics are much, much, much better about this sort of thing than any “Christian” bookstore I have ever been in.

Of course, most of them have a ‘cult’ section that is bigger than the bible displays, and if you want to find books on Catholicism, that’s where you would look…the cult section, not the bible displays.

 

[dianaiad]

That certainly points out that there is a bias, but it doesn’t address whether the information in such literature is accurate. Your wholesale dismissal of the book itself without reading it simply due to the source is just as bad as someone else blindly accepting whatever it might say simply due to the source.

Actually, I read those things. It is because I read those books that I can say that I have never read one that is indeed accurate. Ever. Since I have been reading these sorts of books for forty years, I think I have a fair amount of evidence/experience to go by here: I have read many such books that were wildly inaccurate and really awful (The Godmakers comes firmly to mind) and some that are inaccurate but not quite as horrifically inimical (Maze of Mormonism). Most are just…ill researched and biased.

See, the thing is this: there is no such thing as an objective view in religion. No matter what one’s own beliefs are, they WILL interfere with what you say/write. If you are an atheist, then you will be naturally biased against any religion. If you are an agnostic, pretty much the same thing applies. If you are a member of one religion, you can’t help but view other viewpoints negatively–how could you possibly present a belief you do not agree with in a neutral manner? Hard as you may try, your heart and brain will betray you; the words that seem ‘right’ to you WILL be biased. We can’t help that–we are fallible humans, and humans want to present their beliefs in a positive light, and opposing beliefs in a not so positive light.

And yeah, that counts for me, too. There ARE times when, for instance, I will come in on the side of a Catholic who is battling some idiot about the differance between worshiping God and praying to Mary for intercession with God. However, I never do that unless there is a Catholic right there with me to keep me out of trouble.

How do you know they gave only “one canned answer to deal with both”? There’s a book out there called “The Four Major Cults: Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the Mormons”. That isn’t to mean the author has conflated the four. He actually addresses each religion by parts. Now considering the accusatory title, I’d certainly be skeptical of the book, but I wouldn’t completely dismiss just because it’s critical and written by a non-member.

Yeah, well, I would. Bitter experience tells me that if these people are historically inaccurate about my own faith (and they have all proven to be so far) then they will be just as inaccurate and biased against any other faith with which they disagree.

Of course you wouldn’t because such a book is explanatory and not critical.

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad: I’m curious if you’re consistent with your position, namely if you follow it with respect to other forms of ideology which aren’t religious in nature. Do you only get your information about liberal politics and the Democratic Party from liberal/Democratic sources? If you were to follow (intellectually that is) the alternative medicine crowd like I do, would you only get your information about homeopathy and acupuncture from homeopaths and acupuncturists? Are doctors who actively advocate evidence-based medicine disqualified from responding?

Religion is a little different from any other field there is. It is POSSIBLE, I believe, to find an objective viewer for politics or medicine (not easy, but possible.) One can look at studies for evidence. One can look at mortal world consequences for political decisions. It is NOT possible, I contend, for anybody who writes about religion to be objective about it, if only because the topic itself is so subjective.

If I were a physician, I would look at the proponents of homeopathy and see what their studies say–look at first hand evidence before I listened to my partner who is losing patients to the homeopath down the block.

As to the Democrats/liberal politics? Yeah, I get my information about what they do from them. It’s more fun that way. Rush Limbaugh may be funny, but if you don’t know what the Liberals say for themselves before you listen to him explain them, you lose half the joke. I personally am leaning more and more towards Libertarianism.

 

[Catholic20064]

Religion is a little different from any other field there is. It is POSSIBLE, I believe, to find an objective viewer for politics or medicine (not easy, but possible.) One can look at studies for evidence. One can look at mortal world consequences for political decisions. It is NOT possible, I contend, for anybody who writes about religion to be objective about it, if only because the topic itself is so subjective.

If I were a physician, I would look at the proponents of homeopathy and see what their studies say–look at first hand evidence before I listened to my partner who is losing patients to the homeopath down the block.

As to the Democrats/liberal politics? Yeah, I get my information about what they do from them. It’s more fun that way. Rush Limbaugh may be funny, but if you don’t know what the Liberals say for themselves before you listen to him explain them, you lose half the joke. I personally am leaning more and more towards Libertarianism.

I think a lot of scientists who don’t even know or care about the Book of Mormon have debunked the Book of Mormon’s tales about Native Americans without even attempting to do so.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I know. That’s rather the point.

How can someone else’s freedom of religion challenge YOUR faith? It is to unthinkable that someone else believe something different than you do–is your own faith so uncertain that it is not validated unless everybody else agrees with you?

Of course their beliefs challenge mine, that’s not to say they impede or prevent me from practicing my faith. All around the world, next door to me people believe differently from me and it has no impact on me at all. In my neighborhood the macrobiotic and the Atkins families have more impact than the various religions practiced. (I like processed flour and don’t care much for meat putting me at odds with both factions). But if people are going to knock on my door to tell me why I should join their religion (the obvious reverse is why I shouldn’t be in mine) then it could be helpful to have information that addresses, directly their claims. In the case of JW’s it may be understanding our view of the 144,000 or the “faithful and wise servant” in yours it may be the Godhead or the great apostasy.

I just had a visit from the Jehovah’s Witnesses that was very funny in a sad sort of way: I told them I was a Mormon and invited them in for a cold glass of water–it was 101 degrees outside and they were dressed waaaaay up in ‘go to meeting’ clothes. They must have been suffocating! Anyway, as soon as they heard ‘Mormon,’ nothing on the planet would have forced them into my home, not even a cold glass of water. He handed me a mini-pamphlet about how the world was going to end in the morning, and left.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses visit once a year, though the last 2 years they also came by around Christmas. They’ve never given me any literature about the world ending mostly a magazine and a couple of books, one about happy families and one about God. They’ve always been pleasant and easy to talk to, about religion and life in general.

Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons share very few beliefs, you realize–and our techniques at the doors differ, too.*Mormons *want to teach you what WE believe. We don’t hand out pamphlets telling you how awful, cultish and satanic YOURS is.

I never said your beliefs were alike I said you both have unique beliefs. I have never been told by Jehovah’s Witnesses that my religion is awful, cultish and satanic. I have been told by them why my understanding or interpretation of passages is wrong and shown what they think is the correct one. That’s all part of it and your missionaries do the same thing, I have been told by them what I know and don’t know. Since you are not on the receiving of you missionaries ministrations you don’t know whether or not they tell people they are wrong.

What we publish is to educate people on what we believe. That’s it. What those three books offer is…what other faiths believe, and frankly, (unless they are written the way “Know your Religions…about Catholicism” is, that is, the part about Catholicism is written by a CATHOLIC who knows what’s what, and the goal is NOT to arm Mormons against Catholicism, but to keep them from doing something stupid—like assuming that Catholics worship statues)

Have you read them? Does the LDS church teach that God the Father has a body? Do you point to certain scriptures to support that belief? Why is it wrong for someone to write a rebuttal to that and point out scriptures to support our own view. Your CHURCH publishes books to go out and get people to join your church to take your message to peoples homes. What these books do is give someone support for their faith when it is challenged by missionaries at their doorstep. You can’t tell me that teaching the Godhead of LDS as being correct does not have the opposite point of the Trinity being wrong.

I know the FAIR site. Since you know it as well, perhaps you can show me where, anywhere on that site, anybody attacks another religion? FAIR has two aims: examining LDS beliefs, and defending them against attacks by others. Every single article on FAIR that addresses another religion is in direct response to an attack BY that religion; not the fact that they believe something else, but that they have written something critical of Mormonism.

The whole site is dedicated to LDS apologetics. There is a rather large area that addresses the Trinity, the great apostasy, the nature of God and man and a whole slew of other things. These “articles” do exactly what you complain about. They present others beliefs and then defend the LDS position.

The church isn’t disowning them–and the authors of the books they sell are devout catholics (sometimes priests) who are not at all being counseled not to do this sort of thing.

Why should they be disowned for encouraging people to defend their faith.

All this said, I do have to say that the Catholics are much, much, much better about this sort of thing than any “Christian” bookstore I have ever been in.

Of course, most of them have a ‘cult’ section that is bigger than the bible displays, and if you want to find books on Catholicism, that’s where you would look…the cult section, not the bible displays.

I would imagine we are well aware of that, it kind of gets back to your first rejoinder and my supposed concern about what others believe. People believing that the Catholic Church is a cult doesn’t impact me any more than people having different beliefs. Should someone tell me to my face I would respond but I’ve never actually had anyone say that to me.

Edited to add:

How come your quotes from other people keep ending up with my name on them?