What is your position concerning the concept of hell?

[LutheranDK]

C. and maybe a bit of G. Certainly the very wicked will be there, no one else but God knows who else will end up there.
.

I’m sure that the very first Christians thought that Paul was “very wicked”…
This “the very wicked will be there!” seems to be more of an attempt to appease a “religious instinct” than to uphold the general teachings of the Scriptures.

 

[wcknight]

Personally, the Muslim version of Hell sounds a whole lot better than the Christian version.

BUT sadly, I doubt it is correct. I hope I’m wrong, but everything we hear about Hell, is contrary to the notion that Hell is temporary. I pray the Muslims are right in that God will empty Hell and all souls will eventually be forgiven. It’s hard to imagine a few lifetimes in torment, yet alone for all eternity.

Why anyone would choose Hell is beyond me. But why anyone choses a lifetime of evil is also beyond me. And yes these folks are a few cards short of a full deck. To choose evil over good, or hatred over love, or Satan over God, you have to be a bit insane.

We all pray for Divine Mercy, but Mercy is necessarily tempered with Divine Justice. IF Justice is fully served then all of us are doomed because all of us have sinned and have fallen short of perfect. It is only with the mercy of God that anyone is saved, but how many and how often is the question. What is the cut off point (IF there is one) at which one gets to Heaven (or Purgatory) or one gets condemned ??

The Church says all it takes is ONE (unrepented) mortal sin, for you to be condemned (IF you were to die in such a state). Such a standard would be quite harse and unreasonable, until one carefully examines what one mortal sin really entails. It means that one had to willfully and knowingly commit a very grevious offense against God. PLUS they died before they could ask foregiveness either formally in confession or expressed sincere desire and intent to seek forgiveness in confession as soon as possible.

Given a choice the Muslim belief may be preferable, in that no one goes to Hell foreever. HOWEVER, there is a huge difference between what God actually does, and what some folks hopes or thinks He does. No one knows for sure how God operates except for Jesus Himself, and He has already told us otherwise.

 

[wcknight]

I’m sure that the very first Christians thought that Paul was “very wicked”…
This “the very wicked will be there!” seems to be more of an attempt to appease a “religious instinct” than to uphold the general teachings of the Scriptures.

Well, let’s requalify that with the very wicked who are unrepentant. St. Paul reformed his life when he found out that Christ was who the Christians claimed Him to be, God incarnate.

There’s no attempt to appease anyone or anything. Jesus often said the wicked will be punished, I don’t see any contradiction in what is written in scriptures. Do you have a passage that says the wicked will be rewarded ???

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5004454:

Do you think human beings are basically good, basically bad, or neutral? Pick one for definite

and once you’ve taken your position we’ll explore the possibilities in connection with the idea of hell.

Cordially,
Mick
:thumbsup:allright…i believe people are basically good…fd

I guess we could begin by speculating that since people are basically good (we’re assuming that goodness correctly describes the underlying reality of our human nature) then they will be able to save themselves from hell by virtue of their own goodness? Might we also reasonably suppose that those people who embrace evil must have made a conscious effort to defy God’s goodness and the natural state of goodness that He had bestowed upon them in order to become evil and thus would be culpable in the eyes of God for doing so and therefore deserve punishment in hell?

Speculatively,
Mick

 

[Bill_Pick]

I guess we could begin by speculating that since people are basically good (we’re assuming that goodness correctly describes the underlying reality of our human nature) then they will be able to save themselves from hell by virtue of their own goodness? Might we also reasonably suppose that those people who embrace evil must have made a conscious effort to defy God’s goodness and the natural state of goodness that He had bestowed upon them in order to become evil and thus would be culpable in the eyes of God for doing so and therefore deserve punishment in hell?

Speculatively,
Mick

I,m Cathloic but why do non-cathloic say we are going to hell WHY, do you think this I know for a facts Baptist think all Cathloic say we are going to hell

 

[allhers]

…c)It’s total separation from God forever
That would be hell

 

[reteeks21]

I,m Cathloic but why do non-cathloic say we are going to hell WHY, do you think this I know for a facts Baptist think all Cathloic say we are going to hell

That’s not true. I know loads of Baptists who do not believe that for a second. That would be like lumping all Catholics into the “all Catholics think Protestants are going to hell” category.

 

[Bill_Pick]

That’s not true. I know loads of Baptists who do not believe that for a second. That would be like lumping all Catholics into the “all Catholics think Protestants are going to hell” category.

I have never talk to any Baptists that did not say if you are Cathloic you are going to hell and I have talk to more Baptists then Cathloics and I,m Cathloic for 17 years I went to a Baptist church and when I met one and say I,m Cathloic well you know you are going to hell. I have them coming to my house and telling me I will be in hell.I just got off with a person that was on this board that was banned just tell me 20mins ago that I was going to hell. I may have used the wrong words but they will tell you ,you are going to hell in one heart beat.

 

[reteeks21]

I have never talk to any Baptists that did not say if you are Cathloic you are going to hell and I have talk to more Baptists then Cathloics and I,m Cathloic for 17 years I went to a Baptist church and when I met one and say I,m Cathloic well you know you are going to hell. I have them coming to my house and telling me I will be in hell.I just got off with a person that was on this board that was banned just tell me 20mins ago that I was going to hell. I may have used the wrong words but they will tell you ,you are going to hell in one heart beat.

Some of them will, yes, and that is to their dis-credit. It truly is a shame, but every Christian group is guilty of it not just fundamental Protestants.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Some of them will, yes, and that is to their dis-credit. It truly is a shame, but every Christian group is guilty of it not just fundamental Protestants.

WEll for one , I, have only got this from the BAPTIST not from Protestants,just maybe because I know a lot of them

 

[reteeks21]

WEll for one , I, have only got this from the BAPTIST not from Protestants,just maybe because I know a lot of them

Well, regardless of what Christian does it, it’s a shame.

 

[jargon631]

Some of them will, yes, and that is to their dis-credit. It truly is a shame, but every Christian group is guilty of it not just fundamental Protestants.

although i am now a non-christian, i spent 18 years in the seventh-day adventist church…(shudder)…we were told that all catholics are going to hell…of course, we were also taught that all non-sda religions were on the big slide to the fire…that type of religious elitism is just as idiotic now as it was then…if there IS a hell, i would think that a good way to get there would be to selectively interpret the bible and to presume to speak for god(like the sda’s)…frederick…:tiphat:

 

[wcknight]

Baptists are protestants, at least a subset of them. No one knows who will end up in Hell, and it’s a shame that one Christian group will condemn another simply becasue their belief don’t match.

It’s a total lack of understanding of what Catholic believe that leads some think they we Catholics as a group are toast. I’ve heard some folks say that we worship the devil. Some say that because we place Mary above God (which we most especially do NOT), that we are guilty of blasphame. Some say because we kneel in front of statues in Church we are guilty of idolarty. SOme say that becuase we sometimes pray to the saints for help, we are wrongly offering worship to them instead of to God alone.

Personally, I think there is an underlying jealousy and envy because deep down they know that we alone can trace our heritage back to the Apostles. They ignore the fact that EVERY SINGLE protestant group can only trace their beginnings back to the reformation at the very earliest.

So they make up some lame story that somehow, Catholics/Christians began with the emperor Constantine, which is totally insane. Some claim that somehow Christianity got suspended from the first or second century up to the 15th century, and miraculously Christianity started back up with the reformation.

It’s all smoke an mirrors, and becomes plain to see, when various protestant biblical scholars and historians discover that only the Catholic Church still practices the faith the same way as the early Christians did, that only the Catholic Church truly abides by all of scriptures in its COMPLETE and ORIGINAL FORM, and it’s only the Catholic Church that is in complete union with all of the great saints from the time of Christ until this very day.

The impossible challenge is for any faith other than Catholicism to be able to trace its lineage from the present day back to the Apostles and Christ. It is impossible to do without using the Catholic saints and popes from the 1500 up until Christ. While Catholics can list every pope from now up until St. Peter, the best any other group cna do is list folks up until their founder, unusally to the 15th century AT BEST.

IF your Church can only go back to Martin Luther, or John Calvin, or Henry the VIII, then you are stuck, because even then they would have to admit that these folks also were Catholics before they broke away.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Well, regardless of what Christian does it, it’s a shame.

Yes it is ,I once had a preacher from the largest church in town tell me AFTER he was inform I was Cathloic tell me I need to get save and stay out of hell. and this was in front of my wife and children.

 

[jargon631]

Baptists are protestants, at least a subset of them. No one knows who will end up in Hell, and it’s a shame that one Christian group will condemn another simply becasue their belief don’t match.

that is one of the biggest problems i had with sda doctrine…nowhere in the bible does god say that adventists are primera…frederick

 

[Little_Dove]

I guess we could begin by speculating that since people are basically good (we’re assuming that goodness correctly describes the underlying reality of our human nature) then they will be able to save themselves from hell by virtue of their own goodness? Might we also reasonably suppose that those people who embrace evil must have made a conscious effort to defy God’s goodness and the natural state of goodness that He had bestowed upon them in order to become evil and thus would be culpable in the eyes of God for doing so and therefore deserve punishment in hell?

Speculatively,
Mick

Dear Mick,
The problem is this. God originally created everything good, because God cannot “create” evil. It is against His nature. So, human beings were originally created
“Very good,” and created in the, “Image and likeness of God,” therefore very good indeed. However, human beings were given free will, the ability to choose to love God instead of being forced to accept and love Him. No one wants to be loved by a person who loves because he is forced. Same with God. And we know the story. Adam chose his own will and chose to disobey God. Thus we have the original or first sin. Because Adam and Eve were our first parents, all of us (except for the Virgin Mary) inherit this sin. As St Paul states," sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned." Rom5:12,19. So we are all born without God’s grace in our souls.
What takes this sin away? The Catholic Church teaches that it is through baptism that original sin is washed away. However, even after original sin is washed away, the effects of that sin remains. Therefore, because of the effects of original sin, the soul is wounded and weakened. The weakened nature of man is such that he is inclined to evil, this inclination, the Church calls concupiscence.
CCC 396-412 The catechism explains it in far better detail than I am able to do…do you have a catechism? It is such a wealth of truly profound information. It contains, in very clear form, the essential teaching of the Church.
No man can get to heaven on merely natural, human goodness. In order to attain heaven we need the supernatural life of God within us…that is what we call sanctifying grace…
We attain this grace primarily by the reception of the sacraments…especially the Blessed Sacrament.

God Bless Mick!
To Jesus, Through Mary

 

[SSTeacher]

Dear Mick,
The problem is this. God originally created everything good, because God cannot “create” evil. It is against His nature. So, human beings were originally created
“Very good,” and created in the, “Image and likeness of God,” therefore very good indeed.

I don’t perceive evil to be something that has material substance like a table or a chair. I think the best definition of evil is to say that it is the wrong relationship between good things that God has created.

However, human beings were given free will, the ability to choose to love God instead of being forced to accept and love Him.

Unfortunately, in some cases, cruel and fanatical religiosity has been forced upon youngsters and this has impaired their ability to love God or anybody else.

No one wants to be loved by a person who loves because he is forced.

If a person is forced, it isn’t love.

Same with God.

With respect, it isn’t exactly the same. Whenever we approach God, the Creator, we naturally have some fear within us. Some people even see God as declaring, “I want you to come to me of your own free will and love me because I first loved you” and then adding, “Oh, and by the way, if you don’t love me you’re going to suffer eternal torment in a lake of fire.”

And we know the story. Adam chose his own will and chose to disobey God. Thus we have the original or first sin.

How do you respond to the argument that Adam was entrapped?

Because Adam and Eve were our first parents, all of us (except for the Virgin Mary) inherit this sin.

I think I’m correct in stating that Catholicism teaches that we also inherit the guilt of that sin? You can advise me if I’m wrong. I don’t think Holy Orthodoxy embraces that same teaching. I’ll come back to the assertion about the Virgin Mary.

As St Paul states," sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned." Rom5:12,19.

I agree that this was Saint Paul’s assertion.

So we are all born without God’s grace in our souls.

Well, you’ve jumped from a Bible quote to a theological notion. But I won’t argue with it.

What takes this sin away? The Catholic Church teaches that it is through baptism that original sin is washed away. However, even after original sin is washed away, the effects of that sin remains.

I feel confident that you’ve correctly described the teaching of the Catholic Church. Saint Paul doesn’t mention any of that, though. He writes (1 Corinthians 15:21): For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

Therefore, because of the effects of original sin, the soul is wounded and weakened. The weakened nature of man is such that he is inclined to evil, this inclination, the Church calls concupiscence.

I think the various Christian communities have different names for it – depraved is another word I’ve encountered. But it amounts to the same reality.

CCC 396-412 The catechism explains it in far better detail than I am able to do…do you have a catechism? It is such a wealth of truly profound information. It contains, in very clear form, the essential teaching of the Church.

I do indeed have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I have no reason to doubt that it correctly portrays Catholic teaching. Whether the teaching is itself correct is a question to which we non–Catholics ought perhaps to give the fullest and fairest consideration.

No man can get to heaven on merely natural, human goodness.

I daresay most Christians would agree that this is the reason for the Atonement. If we were good then we wouldn’t need a Savior because we’d be able to connect with God on the basis of our own inherent goodness. This is where Catholic teaching about the Virgin Mary seems to me to be distorted. The proposition is that God granted immunity from sin to one human being in order to achieve His plan of saving the whole human race from sin. There are at least two solid objections from a Protestant viewpoint. Firstly, if the doctrine is true, it means that God can in fact grant complete immunity from sin to human beings yet grants it only to one. So why not just grant immunity to everybody and save everybody that way? Secondly, the doctrine directly contradicts what the Bible (Saint Paul) says i.e. that all have sinned.

In order to attain heaven we need the supernatural life of God within us…that is what we call sanctifying grace…
We attain this grace primarily by the reception of the sacraments…especially the Blessed Sacrament.

I feel confident that this is the correct Catholic stance.

God Bless Mick!
To Jesus, Through Mary

God Bless you, too!

Cordially,
Mick

 

[firstmode]

PSA 9:17 The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God.

139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the
depths, you are there.

PRO 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps lead straight to the grave.

15:24 The path of life leads upward for the wise to keep him from going
down to the grave.

23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the
rod, he will not die.

MAT 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be
subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is
answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in
danger of the fire of hell.

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It
is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to
be thrown into hell.

30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.
It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body
to go into hell.

7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the
road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the
soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in
hell.

13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the
kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,

39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the
age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at
the end of the age.

41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his
kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be
weeping and gnashing of teeth.

49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and
separate the wicked from the righteous

50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and
gnashing of teeth.

16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my
church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You
travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one,
you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned
to hell?

25:28 "'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten
talents.

29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance.
Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where
there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are
cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to
eternal life.”

 

[firstmode]

MAR 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you
to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire
never goes out.

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to
enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you
to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be
thrown into hell,

LUK 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the
killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you,
fear him.

16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far
away, with Lazarus by his side.

24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus
to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in
agony in this fire.’

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed,
so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross
over from there to us.’

2TH 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out
from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

JAM 3:6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the
body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on
fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to
hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

JUD 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but
abandoned their own home–these he has kept in darkness, bound with
everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

REV 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever
and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

6:8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named
Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over
a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild
beasts of the earth.

9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen
from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the
Abyss.

2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a
gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the
Abyss.

14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured
full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning
sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no
rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for
anyone who receives the mark of his name."

19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had
performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had
deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his
image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning
sulfur.

20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of
burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They
will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up
the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he
had done.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of
fire is the second death.

15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was
thrown into the lake of fire.

21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the
sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all
liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the
second death."

 

[firstmode]

The Apocalypse of Peter:

21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them.

23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them.

24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery.

And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place.

25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement.

26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion.

27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness.

29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses.

30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. [This is suggested by the LXX of two passages in Job: xli. 30, his bed is of sharp spits; viii. 17, on an heap of stones doth he rest, and shall live in the midst of gravel-stones.] And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God.

31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury.

32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman.

33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment…

34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God.