What is your position concerning the concept of hell?

[firstmode]

Book of Enoch:

4 And He is righteous also in His judgement,
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5 And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.

[Chapter 51]

1 And in those days shall the earth also give back that which has been entrusted to it,
And Sheol also shall give back that which it has received,
And hell shall give back that which it owes.

5a For in those days the Elect One shall arise,
2 And he shall choose the righteous and holy from among them:
For the day has drawn nigh that they should be saved.

3 And the Elect One shall in those days sit on My throne,
And his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel:
For the Lord of Spirits hath given (them) to him and hath glorified him.

4 And in those days shall the mountains leap like rams,
And the hills also shall skip like lambs satisfied with milk,
And the faces of [all] the angels in heaven shall be lighted up with joy.

5b And the earth shall rejoice,
c And the righteous shall dwell upon it,
d And the elect shall walk thereon.

[Chapter 103]

1 Now, therefore, I swear to you, the righteous, by the glory of the Great and Honoured and 2 Mighty One in dominion, and by His greatness I swear to you.
I know a mystery
And have read the heavenly tablets,
And have seen the holy books,
And have found written therein and inscribed regarding them:

3 That all goodness and joy and glory are prepared for them,
And written down for the spirits of those who have died in righteousness,
And that manifold good shall be given to you in recompense for your labours,
And that your lot is abundantly beyond the lot of the living.

4 And the spirits of you who have died in righteousness shall live and rejoice,
And their spirits shall not perish, nor their memorial from before the face of the Great One
Unto all the generations of the world: wherefore no longer fear their contumely.

5 Woe to you, ye sinners, when ye have died,
If ye die in the wealth of your sins,
And those who are like you say regarding you:
’ Blessed are the sinners: they have seen all their days.

6 And how they have died in prosperity and in wealth,
And have not seen tribulation or murder in their life;
And they have died in honour,
And judgement has not been executed on them during their life."

7 Know ye, that their souls will be made to descend into Sheol
And they shall be wretched in their great tribulation.

8 And into darkness and chains and a burning flame where there is grievous judgement shall your spirits enter;
And the great judgement shall be for all the generations of the world.
Woe to you, for ye shall have no peace.

 

[firstmode]

2 Peter 2:4 “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;”

Jude 1:6 “And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home–these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.”

The Book of Enoch:

[Chapter 54]

1 And I looked and turned to another part of the earth, and saw there a deep valley with burning 2 fire. And they brought the kings and the mighty, and began to cast them into this deep valley. 3 And there mine eyes saw how they made these their instruments, iron chains of immeasurable weight. 4 And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: ’ For whom are these chains being prepared ? ’ And he said unto me: ’ These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6 And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.’ 7 And in those days shall punishment come from the Lord of Spirits, and he will open all the chambers of waters which are above the heavens, and of the fountains which are beneath the earth. 8 And all the waters shall be joined with the waters: that which is above the heavens is the masculine, 9 and the water which is beneath the earth is the feminine. And they shall destroy all who dwell 10 on the earth and those who dwell under the ends of the heaven. And when they have recognized their unrighteousness which they have wrought on the earth, then by these shall they perish.

 

[SSTeacher]

firstmode,

Would you be kind enough to desist, please? You are not adding anything to the discussion by what you’re doing.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[Bass]

C for sure…

I always believed hell existed, but never really understood it fully, and then i read St. Augustine and he said that God created hell out of love! that really screwed up my thinking, until my brother committed suicide, and then that made sense to me.

to make a long story short, my brother was the most humble person I ever known, he was married to a witch and had 4 children, she tortured him by taking away his children and other sick things, his children were his life and without them he had nothing to live for. so after years of torture he got drunk one day ended his life.

Then I understood what it meant (God created hell out of love), he loved my brother so much that he created hell for people like his wife. well, at least that’s how I see it. but for sure hell is there.

 

[jargon631]

hey mick…i was reading an earlier post and i dont understand the concept of someone “inheriting” guilt…does that mean that we have to spend our lives atoning for things we never did?..frederick…:ehh:

 

[SSTeacher]

hey mick…i was reading an earlier post and i dont understand the concept of someone “inheriting” guilt…does that mean that we have to spend our lives atoning for things we never did?..frederick…:ehh:

Hi Frederick,

That’s an interesting idea but it is a little wayward. This is how Catholic Answers Apologist, Michelle Arnold, explains it (check it out here):

There is a confusion here between Adam’s personal guilt and the inheritance of the deprivation of sanctifying grace. Adam’s personal guilt for his sin is not transferred to anyone besides himself, which is why we can say that infants are personally innocent of sin (cf. Rom. 9:10–12)

Adam, though, was not just an individual who sinned. As the first man, and thus as the representative of the human race, some of the consequences for his first sin (i.e., original sin) fell not only upon him but upon his descendants. For example, because he lost sanctifying grace, he could not pass it on to his descendants. Christ, as the new Adam, had to win back for mankind sanctifying grace, which is then normatively applied to individuals in baptism. Because infants are descendants of Adam, they are born without sanctifying grace. For it to be applied to them, ordinarily they are given it in baptism. In other words, they are “reborn” and become spiritual descendants of the new Adam, Christ.

Because baptism is a rebirth and an initiation into the New Covenant, it can be given to infants. Because baptism is ordinarily necessary for salvation, the Church insists that Catholics see to it that their children are baptized as soon as possible.

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[LutheranDK]

Well, let’s requalify that with the very wicked who are unrepentant. St. Paul reformed his life when he found out that Christ was who the Christians claimed Him to be, God incarnate.

There’s no attempt to appease anyone or anything. Jesus often said the wicked will be punished, I don’t see any contradiction in what is written in scriptures. Do you have a passage that says the wicked will be rewarded ???

No I do not, and I never made any such claim.
I do, however, have many a passage that says that unbelievers (regardless of how many years they have been boyscouts and followed old ladies across the road) will not be saved.

Now, the point you made (that repentance is the key) is what I want to get at. What I objected to was the statement as it stood, which could indicate that it does not really matter if you are a believer; it matters how many good deeds you’ve done. Therefore, a Rabbinical Jew, Muslim, or atheist, might be saved if they do good deeds.
THAT is what I objected to.

 

[Thing]

No I do not, and I never made any such claim.
I do, however, have many a passage that says that unbelievers (regardless of how many years they have been boyscouts and followed old ladies across the road) will not be saved.

Now, the point you made (that repentance is the key) is what I want to get at. What I objected to was the statement as it stood, which could indicate that it does not really matter if you are a believer; it matters how many good deeds you’ve done. Therefore, a Rabbinical Jew, Muslim, or atheist, might be saved if they do good deeds.
THAT is what I objected to.

Somehow I am reminded of the Jewish priest and the Samaritan.
The Jewish priest, one of Gods chosen people, crossed the road and continued praying.
Whist the Samaritan, whom the Jews would not touch, did the good deed.
Which one was rewarded with praise, the jewish believer or him with the good deed who was a believer in ‘something he did not know’.

One Saint 500-600AD had a friend of sorts who was a pagan, an old man, and he would leave food for him and so on, but this old pagan had a natural attraction to goodness and the christian felt sure he would not be lost.

 

[LutheranDK]

Somehow I am reminded of the Jewish priest and the Samaritan.
The Jewish priest, one of Gods chosen people, crossed the road and continued praying.
Whist the Samaritan, whom the Jews would not touch, did the good deed.
Which one was rewarded with praise, the jewish believer or him with the good deed who was a believer in ‘something he did not know’.

One Saint 500-600AD had a friend of sorts who was a pagan, an old man, and he would leave food for him and so on, but this old pagan had a natural attraction to goodness and the christian felt sure he would not be lost.

Who acted in the best way? The Samaritan, of course. The parable of the Good Samaritan is certainly not lost on me. However, salvation was not what that parable was about. It was about determining who our “neighbor” is.

I too have many friends who are pagans (as in: not professing Christians), and I have great affection for them. They are good people. But on the Last Day, that will not help them unless they repent and come to faith in Christ. No one can be saved unless they’re born again of water and the Spirit. The entirety of what the NT has to say on the subject can be summed up in what the author of Hebrews says in Hebrews 11:6.

 

[Thing]

Who acted in the best way? The Samaritan, of course. The parable of the Good Samaritan is certainly not lost on me. However, salvation was not what that parable was about. It was about determining who our “neighbor” is.

I too have many friends who are pagans (as in: not professing Christians), and I have great affection for them. They are good people. But on the Last Day, that will not help them unless they repent and come to faith in Christ. No one can be saved unless they’re born again of water and the Spirit. The entirety of what the NT has to say on the subject can be summed up in what the author of Hebrews says in Hebrews 11:6.

Do you think that Samaritan who was praised by God went to hell?

 

[LutheranDK]

Do you think that Samaritan who was praised by God went to hell?

If he did not come to faith, then yes. That is the cohesive (that which comes from a contexual, complete, and cohesive reading) testimony of the Scriptures: Unbelievers are not saved.

 

[jmcrae]

Furthermore - it is very much a matter of debate whether or not the Samaritans were “orthodox” in pre-Christian times.

They themselves would have argued that they were, since they practiced the more ancient tradition of worshipping at Bethel - but the Israelites would have argued that they were not, since they (the Samaritans) refrained from regular Temple worship.

There is also the fact that they were of a different race than the Israelites, since their ancestors had been converts to Judaism; not physically descended from Abraham. But then again, conversion to Judaism was not uncommon in those days, either.

 

[monica1950]

I believe that hell is a very real and frightning place. I for one would not want to go there. If one believes in the Divine Mercy of Jesus then why is it so hard to believe that He would allow Sister Faustina a glimpse of it to help us who have doubts which, by the way, were put there by Saten himself. God does not want any of us to go there, He created us for Him. Saten disobeyed God and since he knows he will never be rewarded by eternal life then he doesn’t want us there either. And remember Saten IS the father of lies so WHO will YOU believe?

 

[Thing]

If he did not come to faith, then yes. That is the cohesive (that which comes from a contexual, complete, and cohesive reading) testimony of the Scriptures: Unbelievers are not saved.

Do you think there is a distinction between unbelivers and disbelievers?

 

[LutheranDK]

Do you think there is a distinction between unbelivers and disbelievers?

Are those two not synonomous? (typo?)

 

[jmcrae]

Are those two not synonomous? (typo?)

I would understand an “unbeliever” to be someone who has never heard the Gospel, where a “disbeliever” would be someone who has heard the Gospel and rejected it.

 

[Thing]

Are those two not synonomous? (typo?)

Of course not.
.(If you have any) Your infant children are unbelievers, until, they grow old enough to ‘read and come to faith’ (as you might say) they have rejected nothing of Christs’ teachings.
If your children grow old enough to read and then reject what they read in Scriptures they become disbelievers.
An unbeliever encompases people who never met Christ but who would love the truth if they knew it.
A disbeliever is one who has heard the truth, understands it, and still rejects it. They do not want it.

 

[LutheranDK]

I would understand an “unbeliever” to be someone who has never heard the Gospel, where a “disbeliever” would be someone who has heard the Gospel and rejected it.

Ok. I was thinking that maybe “unbeliever” was an atheist, but I use the two words synonomously. Both is someone who’s not Christian.

 

[LutheranDK]

Of course not.
.(If you have any) Your infant children are unbelievers, until, they grow old enough to ‘read and come to faith’ (as you might say) they have rejected nothing of Christs’ teachings.
If your children grow old enough to read and then reject what they read in Scriptures they become disbelievers.
An unbeliever encompases people who never met Christ but who would love the truth if they knew it.
A disbeliever is one who has heard the truth, understands it, and still rejects it. They do not want it.

How “authoritative” is that distinction? Is it your own, or do you have it from somewhere else?

As I said in the other post: I use the two words synonomously. The whole debate about children and faith would derail this thread, and I don’t want that to happen

 

[Thing]

Ok. I was thinking that maybe “unbeliever” was an atheist, but I use the two words synonomously. Both is someone who’s not Christian.

Thats the thing is’nt it; an unbeliever might love to be christian, she might live always according to christian values of love and mercy without knowing the true reason why. She might have a natural attraction for goodness and she would recognize and accept the goodness in the christian message if she heard it. Is she to be condemned for loving goodness and living a life of mercy just because she was not tall enough to see or hear Christ when He passed by.