What ISIS Really Wants

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Bubba_Switzler said:
Just out of curiosity, what leads you to believe this? (Read the article before you answer.)

Yeah, they are bad news alright. But Obama says they are not an existential threat to the US. Do you know something that he doesn’t?
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Is Obama telling the truth?
 
oldcatholicguy said:
There is criteria for being deemed a Caliph. The leader of ISIS hasn’t met those used by Sunni Islam (Shia Islam has different criteria).
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Here we come to an interesting problem, though. Obviously Caliph Ibrahim believes that he has satisfied the requirements. And those pledging their allegience to him also believe it.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Here we come to an interesting problem, though. Obviously Caliph Ibrahim believes that he has satisfied the requirements. And those pledging their allegience to him also believe it.
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Yes, it highlights one of the failings of Islam- the lack of a clear religious authority. Under ISIS’s version of Islam I’m quite sure he has met the requirements to be deemed the Caliph, but in regards to the Muslim community (and here for simplicity I’m just referring to Sunni Muslims) as a whole he hasn’t.
 
oldcatholicguy said:
Yes, it highlights one of the failings of Islam- the lack of a clear religious authority. Under ISIS’s version of Islam I’m quite sure he has met the requirements to be deemed the Caliph, but in regards to the Muslim community (and here for simplicity I’m just referring to Sunni Muslims) as a whole he hasn’t.
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How will we know when Caliph Ibrahim has the support fo the Muslim community? Isn’t it just a matter of the size of the Islamic State? And isn’t that, in turn, a matter to be settled on the battlefield?
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
How will we know when Caliph Ibrahim has the support fo the Muslim community? Isn’t it just a matter of the size of the Islamic State? And isn’t that, in turn, a matter to be settled on the battlefield?
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I don’t know the answer to the first question. I assume we would be able to know the answer by tracking the level of support he has among the Muslim community and/or Muslim religious scholars and leaders (who gets to determine who the Caliph is is kind of fuzzy, at least at my level of knowledge it is).

The answer to the second question is that it depends. ISIS could conquer the world and still not be viewed as legit by the Muslim community, or it could be reduced to one mud hut in the middle of nowhere and have the ISIS leader recognized as the Caliph by the Muslim community.

The answer to the third is- to a degree. ISIS could conquer the world and so reshape the Muslim community that only Muslims who view it as the “real” Islam exist. Under those conditions the leader would be the Caliph because he fulfills the criteria. But this really isn’t good support for the “naked power” argument because it ignores the fact that criteria exist which aren’t based on “naked power.”
 
oldcatholicguy said:
Yes, it highlights one of the failings of Islam- the lack of a clear religious authority. Under ISIS’s version of Islam I’m quite sure he has met the requirements to be deemed the Caliph, but in regards to the Muslim community (and here for simplicity I’m just referring to Sunni Muslims) as a whole he hasn’t.
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…The only criteria that is required to be a Sunni Caliph is to be elected. That’s all. 🤷

"Main article: Succession to Muhammad

In his book The Early Islamic Conquests (1981), Fred Donner argues that the standard Arabian practice at the time was for the prominent men of a kinship group, or tribe, to gather after a leader’s death and elect a leader from amongst themselves. There was no specified procedure for this shura or consultation. Candidates were usually, but not necessarily, from the same lineage as the deceased leader. Capable men who would lead well were preferred over an ineffectual heir."
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph

…the fact that the Sunni have not chosen a Caliph immediately after the death of the last one means they have broken tradition. They are unorthodox.
 
TEPO said:
…The only criteria that is required to be a Sunni Caliph is to be elected. That’s all. 🤷

"Main article: Succession to Muhammad

In his book The Early Islamic Conquests (1981), Fred Donner argues that the standard Arabian practice at the time was for the prominent men of a kinship group, or tribe, to gather after a leader’s death and elect a leader from amongst themselves. There was no specified procedure for this shura or consultation. Candidates were usually, but not necessarily, from the same lineage as the deceased leader. Capable men who would lead well were preferred over an ineffectual heir."
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph

…the fact that the Sunni have not chosen a Caliph immediately after the death of the last one means they have broken tradition. They are unorthodox.
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So you kind of missed the fact that your quote doesn’t support the idea that the only criteria is to be elected. One has to be elected by those deemed able to elect.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
  1. Perhaps ISIS is not really Islamic.
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No, they are Islamic
  1. They could be just one Islamic variaint among others, no more or less representive than any others.
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Yes they are a variant.
  1. They might be the most genuine variant of Islam.
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Not sure why they would be more genuine than any other. They are certainly attempting to live the way Mohammed did in the 7th century. But assuming mankind evolves away from the barbarity of the 7th century, and these guys refuse to, I would think they are less genuine. Also, they seem to be even more brutal than the warriors of the 7th century were in a lot of ways. So there could be a good case in saying they are less genuine, not more genuine in the way they practice Islam.
 
oldcatholicguy said:
So you kind of missed the fact that your quote doesn’t support the idea that the only criteria is to be elected. One has to be elected by those deemed able to elect.
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There is no specified procedure for this kind of election or shura.
 
gilliam said:
But assuming mankind evolves away from the barbarity of the 7th century, and these guys refuse to, I would think they are less genuine.
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This is, I think, a very dangerous and peculiar assumption. Typically claims of genuinness hinge on faithfulness to the original, not on evolition away from it toward outsiders.
 
Darryl1958 said:
There is no pope, but there are major schools that carry with them much authority. That is why President Sisi made a point of talking about reform from one of these major schools.
It is not as if it changed any of the teachings or attitudes of the school of course. It akes more than a local politician to do that.
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I know about al-Sisi’s request that he made to the ?Grand Mufti? at al-Azhar (I’ve been to al-Azhar, BTW; it’s a beautiful set of buildings). I just don’t think that ISIS and the other affiliated groups give a you-know-what about anything that the Grand Mufti might say.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
This is, I think, a very dangerous and peculiar assumption. Typically claims of genuinness hinge on faithfulness to the original, not on evolition away from it toward outsiders.
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One thing is faithfulness to the original and something very different is being able to.convince religious people to turn into beasts. These barbarians are beasts and they already were beastlike or very violent personalities in our 21 st century at the time of being recruited to crucify and behead people and children.Supposedly being “sane”…
This is channelling much individual violence in the name.of religion as well.
Ok. No evidence. Just thinking.
 
gilliam said:
I read this article earlier today. It was very good and points out the differences between ISIS and Al-Qaeda, Salafi, other types of Islam & the MB. Deserves a re-read.
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I agree. There is a lot of information to digest in the article. It is not an article to be read hurriedly. I need to reread it also and take my time.
 
DaveBj said:
I know about al-Sisi’s request that he made to the ?Grand Mufti? at al-Azhar (I’ve been to al-Azhar, BTW; it’s a beautiful set of buildings). I just don’t think that ISIS and the other affiliated groups give a you-know-what about anything that the Grand Mufti might say.
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ISIS operates in an Islamic world in which potential recruits do care what the major schools of Islam say, and do their fact checks accordingly.

And what is the message of the mosque.

Well here is part of it:

jihadwatch.org/2015/02/al-azhar-freely-promotes-slaughter-of-christians-and-infidels

Suffice it to say, IS will not be losing many recruits among people who take the words coming from the most prestigious school of Islam seriously.

But that is exactly why Sisi fully recognizes that it is Islam that needs a strong reform movement, if ISIS and any other like minded Islamist group is ever going to be curbed.
 
7_Sorrows said:
I agree. There is a lot of information to digest in the article. It is not an article to be read hurriedly. I need to reread it also and take my time.
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I agree with you.
All what relates to ISIS is hard.to process.
 
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