What Jesus Said Is A Fact, Truth, And An Absolute, Right?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Robert_Heibel
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sorry Robert, not all Protestants will agree with your epistemology either. I think you may be going a bit far with your pneumatology and discerning doctrine. Because,
  1. God appointed teachers, so there must be some value in being taught by others and not just the Spirit.
  2. James 1:5 says ask for wisdom, yet we are never admonished to ask for knowledge
  3. The Holy Spirit will “guide” us to all truth, not personally dictate it to use, the question is how this guidance takes place, and I don’t believe it is through a direct mystical experience, where in scripture does it indicate it is?
  4. Your epistemology is highly modern, western and individualistic. Each of us approaches scripture with our own “lenses”, for instance, I am a white, American, 21st century male. Therefore I may be missing something that an African Christian reads, or a woman, or even still someone from another point in church history or denomination. I don’t think we can totally separate our hermeneutics from the rest of the church. Bible study should not be totally individual, but done as part of a community.
Although I don’t think the solution is a magisterium, I also don’t think we are honoring God when we believe all we need is ourselves, the Bible and the Spirit without any outside teachers or the church as a whole to help guide us. Not even the reformers considered this to be the concept of sola scriptura. The Christian way is to work as a body, not as individual fingers.
 
Robert Heibel:
Todd, I’ll ask you again. How do you know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church? Do you just believe because of what you have read? Do you believe because someone told you? Do you believe because of the holy lives that the leaders of the Church have led? Do you believe because of how true the church is to living and teaching the Word of God? Do you believe because Jesus told you?

Now if Jesus tells you something then believe it?
Click to expand...
Robert,
As you request, here’s a little about my faith journey. I wasn’t raised in any particular faith. When I was in my early twenties, I was pretty much an agnostic regarding to God, Jesus, the Bible, religion, etc. However, at the time I was experiencing some problems that I wasn’t able to overcome on my own and, in desparation, I prayed alone the agnostic’s prayer: Dear God, if you exist, please help me… Instantly, I sensed a large supernatural presence behind me in the room. I was so afraid, I dared not turn around or open my eyes so I probably missed out on a beautiful spectacle. Nonetheless, a warm golden light surrounded me and in my mind I heard the comforting words, “I love you.” A most pleasant experience and one that I could have enjoyed for ever but gradually experienced faded and I returned to myself. This wonderful once-in-a-life-time experience probably lasted only a couple minutes but afterwards I soon realized that the problems I was experiencing also disappeared at that time. God had become a reality to me.

Sometime later, I asked God to reveal to me the truth about Jesus Christ and while reading Psalm 22, I received the gifts of faith in the written word of God and faith in Jesus Christ.

After finishing the Bible, I began reading the extant writings of second and third generation Christians: the Apostolic Fathers and Justin Martyr, in particular. The version I read happened to be translated and published by non-Catholics, by the way. I asked God to reveal to me the truth about his Church and I received the gift of faith in the Catholic Church while reading the last few chapters of the First Apology of Justin Martyr.

As for your other question, the vast majority of the leaders in the Catholic Church lead exemplary lives. The presence of some weeds among the wheat in the Church (Matthew 13:24-30), even some among its leadership (Luke 12:41-46), although very disappointing really only confirms that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ:
1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! (Luke 17:1 KJV)

If there weren’t weeds among the wheat in the Church, then St. Paul would not have felt it necessary to give Timothy the following instruction concerning the Church leaders under him: 17 Let the presbyters who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching; 18for the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” 19 Never admit any charge against a presbyter except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. (1 Timothy 5:17-20),

Jesus’ words to the Jewish crowds and to his disciples concerning the Scribes and Pharisees (below) are equally applicable to Christians concerning any of the Apostles and the Apostles’ successors, the bishops of the Catholic Church, who may lead less-than-exemplary lives, as Peter and Barnabas were guilty of in Antioch as Paul mentions in Galatians 2:11-14.2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. (Matthew 23:2)
 
40.png
Knight4God:
Sorry Robert, not all Protestants will agree with your epistemology either. I think you may be going a bit far with your pneumatology and discerning doctrine. Because,
(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which** philosophy ** is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”
  1. God appointed teachers, so there must be some value in being taught by others and not just the Spirit.
    Why sure we need teachers, how else would anyone become aware of Jesus our Lord and God?
    After we once know about God and accept Jesus as our savior and He sends us His Holy Spirit, then He will teach us.
    (John 14:26)“but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”
  2. James 1:5 says ask for wisdom, yet we are never admonished to ask for knowledge
  3. The Holy Spirit will “guide” us to all truth, not personally dictate it to use, the question is how this guidance takes place, and I don’t believe it is through a direct mystical experience, where in scripture does it indicate it is?
(John 14:26)“but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”
  1. Your epistemology is highly modern, western and individualistic. Each of us approaches scripture with our own “lenses”, for instance, I am a white, American, 21st century male. Therefore I may be missing something that an African Christian reads, or a woman, or even still someone from another point in church history or denomination. I don’t think we can totally separate our hermeneutics from the rest of the church. Bible study should not be totally individual, but done as part of a community.
    I agree, and if I understand you correctly, this may be an example of how Jesus speaks to us all in a different way. When Jesus told me that we were not to hurt (harm) anyone for any reason, I turned to my wife and told her what Jesus just told me. She was shocked and asked me, if some man came into the house and was intending to rape her, would I just let it happen? I told her I would get into his way but I wouldn’t hurt (harm) him. My wife got very angry and walked out of the room. I never argued with her about it again, and I knew she had a close relationship with Jesus, and that Jesus in His way with her, would convince my wife also. A short period of time latter she came to me and said I would not want you to either.
Although I don’t think the solution is a magisterium, I also don’t think we are honoring God when we believe all we need is ourselves, the Bible and the Spirit without any outside teachers or the church as a whole to help guide us. Not even the reformers considered this to be the concept of sola scriptura. The Christian way is to work as a body, not as individual fingers.
Click to expand...
First I’m not a reformer, Jesus just told me to give a word. Jesus also told me to quite trying to figure Him out and just follow Him. So I just do what I’m told to do.
When I saw that Jesus was teaching me much that the Church no longer taught, I was concerned. So I asked Him about how I could summit to the Churches headship and still do what He was asking me to do? Jesus told me to cooperate with. Letting me know that I was no longer under the Churches authority, but I was not to fight against the Church, but was to help. Now I will quote you a Scripture and after you read it maybe you will understand that what I just shared has happened before me. (Matthew 12:1-4) At that time Jesus went through the cornfields one Sabbath day. His disciples were hungry and began to pick ears of corn and eat them. The Pharisees noticed it and said to him, ‘Look, your disciples are doing something that is forbidden on the Sabbath’ but he said to them, ‘Have you not read what David did when he and his followers were hungry — ----"
 
Robert Heibel:
First I’m not a reformer, Jesus just told me to give a word. Jesus also told me to quite trying to figure Him out and just follow Him. So I just do what I’m told to do.
When I saw that Jesus was teaching me much that the Church no longer taught, I was concerned. So I asked Him about how I could summit to the Churches headship and still do what He was asking me to do? Jesus told me to cooperate with. Letting me know that I was no longer under the Churches authority, but I was not to fight against the Church, but was to help.

You should still be concerned…There is no way Jesus would tell you you were no longer under the Church’s authority - if you are a baptized Catholic. The Church is His Bride. He would never undermine or defame Her.

What assurances do you have that it is actually Jesus speaking to you and not a manipulation of Satan’s?

Have you discussed these visions/conversations with a spiritual advisor? A lot of the saints were instructed to utilize spiritual advisors to help them discern the messages they were receiving. Proof again, that Jesus relies on the Church to protect and preserve Truth.
Click to expand...
 
40.png
YinYangMom:
You should still be concerned…There is no way Jesus would tell you you were no longer under the Church’s authority - if you are a baptized Catholic. The Church is His Bride. He would never undermine or defame Her.

(Matthew 12:1-4) At that time Jesus went through the cornfields one Sabbath day. His disciples were hungry and began to pick ears of corn and eat them. The Pharisees noticed it and said to him, ‘Look, your disciples are doing something that is forbidden on the Sabbath’ but he said to them, ‘Have you not read what David did when he and his followers were hungry — how he went into the house of god and they ate the loaves of the offering although neither he nor his followers were permitted to eat them, but only the priests?
If you understood this Scripture you wouldn’t you wouldn’t have made that statement.

What assurances do you have that it is actually Jesus speaking to you and not a manipulation of Satan’s?

Have you discussed these visions/conversations with a spiritual advisor? A lot of the saints were instructed to utilize spiritual advisors to help them discern the messages they were receiving. Proof again, that Jesus relies on the Church to protect and preserve Truth.
Click to expand...
 
allhers said:
:bigyikes: Have you ever visited the Troglodytes thread??
Click to expand...

Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit.
(John 16:13) “But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learnt; and he will tell you of the things to come.”

Holy Spirit told me to tell everyone, that no matter who tells us anything about God, be it a bishop or anyone, we are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.
 
Gottle of Geer said:
****

It depends. It seems safe to assume that he was not saying a a real Samaritan helped a real victim of real brigands, even though the road from Jerusalem to Jericho was real enough - He was not telling a parable, not illustrating a biography.​

Not all He said was an absolute - if it were, we would have to give all we have to the poor: the Church has never understood herself to be obliged to this; if anything, she has been rather severe to those who have insisted all Christians must do this.

So there is a dilemma for those who insist on absolutes: doing so, may provide ethical certainties - but, the same people, seldom take the same absolute approach to the NT. FWIW, I think insisting on moral absolutes breaks down, because choice in the real world often involves choosing the lesser of evils, rather than a good rather than evil. And because Jesus was talking to men in a peasant society; in a complex urban society, getting out of one’s obligations to one’s fellows is rather more diffiocult than if society were less complex and highly developed. The need for development of doctrine, is an implicit recognition that the NT cannot be taken in as straightfoward (“absolute”) a way as one might want. ##
Click to expand...

You are right that is why Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to each and every one of His people.

(John 16:13) “But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learnt; and he will tell you of the things to come.”

Holy Spirit told me to tell everyone, that no matter who tells us anything about God, be it a bishop or anyone, we are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.
 
E.E.N.S.:
Amen, yes, but the Holy Spirit guides us through the Church, as He is the soul of the Church.

And Jesus does explain the Word to us - through His Body, the Church.
You forgot He guides us personally also.

May we all seek Christ with a fervent heart through His Church!

God bless!
Click to expand...
 
40.png
Knight4God:
Sorry Robert, not all Protestants will agree with your epistemology either. I think you may be going a bit far with your pneumatology and discerning doctrine. Because,
  1. God appointed teachers, so there must be some value in being taught by others and not just the Spirit.
  2. James 1:5 says ask for wisdom, yet we are never admonished to ask for knowledge
  3. The Holy Spirit will “guide” us to all truth, not personally dictate it to use, the question is how this guidance takes place, and I don’t believe it is through a direct mystical experience, where in scripture does it indicate it is?
    (1 Corinthians 14:3) “On the other hand, the man who prophesies does talk to other people, to their improvement, their encouragement and their consolation.”
  4. Your epistemology is highly modern, western and individualistic. Each of us approaches scripture with our own “lenses”, for instance, I am a white, American, 21st century male. Therefore I may be missing something that an African Christian reads, or a woman, or even still someone from another point in church history or denomination. I don’t think we can totally separate our hermeneutics from the rest of the church. Bible study should not be totally individual, but done as part of a community.
Although I don’t think the solution is a magisterium, I also don’t think we are honoring God when we believe all we need is ourselves, the Bible and the Spirit without any outside teachers or the church as a whole to help guide us. Not even the reformers considered this to be the concept of sola scriptura. The Christian way is to work as a body, not as individual fingers.
Click to expand...
 
40.png
sirknightron:
Peace be with you.

How do you know absolutly for certain that it is Jesus telling you and is the Bible you are using is exactly what and or how Jesus intended his words to be interpreted?

I will share with you how I came to know for sure that it was Jesus who was calling me to His ministry.
I am a man, who grew up a Catholic. Went to Catholic schools and from the age of twenty-five to forty went to Mass and Communion almost every day. At age thirty-eight Jesus started calling me to His ministry, using many signs and even miracles. I was married at the time He started calling me, and I already had two children. Being a minister, to me, meant being a Catholic priest. So I would say yes to God, but instead of asking Jesus what He wanted me to do, I would assume what He had for me to do. This went on for two years, and then my third child was born blind. We already had a child with Downs Syndrome. When the baby came down with an eye infection and our doctor wouldn’t see her until the first of the week, my wife just broke down in a very heart felt prayer, and asked God to heal her. She was healed, both the eye infection and her eyesight. Our baby is now twenty-eight and has twenty/fifteen vision, where the rest of us need glasses. Soon after this Jesus let me know that I was to give Him an answer, I said yes. But I wanted to know for sure, if it was really Jesus who was calling me. I asked to be given the gift of tongues that night. I spoke in tongues for the first time that night. Next I asked Jesus to let me know what seminary I was to attend? He told me “NO! Don’t read about me I’ll teach you about me.”

Over the last thirty years Jesus has been teaching me and giving me more and more grace to be more loving, Spiritual, and faith to live His Word more fully. I read many different Bibles; the Holy Spirit lets me understand what is true.
Do you recieve direct intervention as many others claim? When others disagree with you are they correct as well?
Are you self taught? If yes then why should others listen to you?
If not then who is your teacher and why do you teach others if there is no need for neighbor to teach neighbor? Are all to go directly to Jesus for the answers or help? Is not helping your neighbor teaching the life of Christ?
Why go to a church and listen to someone else’s sermmond and their personal interpritation of the word if you do? What about persons who are lacking in full knowledge like myself in a lot of ways? Who teaches us what is correct and how would I know that I’m not being mislead either by others or simply through my own misunderstandings? After all I pray and ask for guidance before I read the Bible I believe to be the correct one. I believe this to be so because (yes) I do place my trust in others that God sends to help me as well as those in heaven.
Are we meant to be alone or are we to belong to the one Body?
Christ has taken only one Bride and protects Her from the gates of Hell.
Click to expand...
 
40.png
HagiaSophia:
What precisely does that mean?
Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit told me I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus, and to non-Catholic about the Eucharist being truly Jesus’ body and blood.

Twenty-seven years ago Jesus told me a time was coming soon when man would suffer more then he has ever suffered. I was to give a word and leave. Out of that word a community would grow. He wanted a place of safety for His people.
 
Robert Heibel:
Holy Spirit told me to tell everyone, that no matter who tells us anything about God, be it a bishop or anyone, we are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.
Click to expand...
OK. So you’ve told.
And to the question of whether something is right or wrong, Jesus has spoken to tell us to turn to HIS Church for guidance, for ONLY the Church has HIS PROMISE never to be able to teach in error because of the protection of the HOLY SPIRIT.

So, what’s your point???
We ARE turning to Jesus for guidance.
And we ARE listening to His response.
And we DO have a place of safety in the Catholic Church.

So while I appreciate the message, please explain what you are expecting us to do with it…I don’t see where we are not doing what is pleasing to Jesus…but you keep repeating your message as if we are. Please elaborate.
 
(Matthew 12:1-4) At that time Jesus went through the cornfields one Sabbath day. His disciples were hungry and began to pick ears of corn and eat them. The Pharisees noticed it and said to him, ‘Look, your disciples are doing something that is forbidden on the Sabbath’ but he said to them, ‘Have you not read what David did when he and his followers were hungry — how he went into the house of god and they ate the loaves of the offering although neither he nor his followers were permitted to eat them, but only the priests?
If you understood this Scripture you wouldn’t you wouldn’t have made that statement.
Click to expand...
I’ve read the scripture several times and listened to many homilies on it.

I made the statement that Jesus would never go undermine or defame His Bride the Church.

You say if I understood this particular passaged I wouldn’t have made that statement.

I honestly don’t see the connection. Please explain your position.
 
40.png
YinYangMom:
OK. So you’ve told.
And to the question of whether something is right or wrong, Jesus has spoken to tell us to turn to HIS Church for guidance, for ONLY the Church has HIS PROMISE never to be able to teach in error because of the protection of the HOLY SPIRIT.

So, what’s your point???
We ARE turning to Jesus for guidance.
And we ARE listening to His response.
And we DO have a place of safety in the Catholic Church.

So while I appreciate the message, please explain what you are expecting us to do with it…I don’t see where we are not doing what is pleasing to Jesus…but you keep repeating your message as if we are. Please elaborate.
Click to expand...
I don’t know how to explain to you, that Jesus will talk to you just like your mother has or does. Remember Jesus spoke to Paul, and thought out history people, who the church consider saints, have heard Jesus talk to them. He has talked to me often. If you can’t believe Jesus speaks to people audibly, then consider the Gift of tongues with interpretation, visions, and prophecy.
 
Robert Heibel:
I don’t know how to explain to you, that Jesus will talk to you just like your mother has or does. Remember Jesus spoke to Paul, and thought out history people, who the church consider saints, have heard Jesus talk to them. He has talked to me often. If you can’t believe Jesus speaks to people audibly, then consider the Gift of tongues with interpretation, visions, and prophecy.
Click to expand...
I have no real problem believing that Jesus can (and does possibly) speak to individual persons, however what I refuse to believe is that Jesus would speak contrary to His own Church.

If you are/were Catholic, and truly understood the Faith, then you would see Who the Church is and see that what you claim is impossible…unless, of course, that this could be the evil one under the guise of Jesus (which has happened to people throughout history.)

(It is impossible for God to contradict Himself.)
 
Robert Heibel:
I don’t know how to explain to you, that Jesus will talk to you just like your mother has or does. Remember Jesus spoke to Paul, and thought out history people, who the church consider saints, have heard Jesus talk to them. He has talked to me often. If you can’t believe Jesus speaks to people audibly, then consider the Gift of tongues with interpretation, visions, and prophecy.
Click to expand...
Well Jesus has spoken to me on several occasions through the Holy Spirit so I don’t doubt that.

But are you trying to suggest we only need rely on Jesus or the Holy Spirit and not the Church because He Himself gave the Church to us for that specific reason, and He would never rescind that. NEVER. We have His promise.

So if you’re asking me to take YOUR word that we don’t need the Church over HIS word that we do…then there’s no way I could possibly reject HIM. Sorry.
 
40.png
YinYangMom:
Well Jesus has spoken to me on several occasions through the Holy Spirit so I don’t doubt that.

But are you trying to suggest we only need rely on Jesus or the Holy Spirit and not the Church because He Himself gave the Church to us for that specific reason, and He would never rescind that. NEVER. We have His promise.

So if you’re asking me to take YOUR word that we don’t need the Church over HIS word that we do…then there’s no way I could possibly reject HIM. Sorry.
Click to expand...
I am asking you not to take anyones word about God.

The Holy Spirit told me to tell everyone, that no matter who tells us anything about God, be it a bishop or anyone, we are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.
 
Robert Heibel:
I am asking you not to take anyones word about God.
Click to expand...
Do you not see the irony that you are asking us not to take anyone’s word about God? You are part of that “anyone”. Am I not stating the obvious?
 
Robert Heibel:
I am asking you not to take anyones word about God.

Not even God’s Word, THE WORD MADE FLESH, Jesus Christ???

The Holy Spirit told me to tell everyone, that no matter who tells us anything about God, be it a bishop or anyone, we are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.

Well, I’ve asked Jesus if what you are saying is right or wrong and He tells me you are wrong.

You need a spiritual advisor. Surely you are receiving a message but are you sure you’re understanding it in the correct context and executing it in the manner intended?
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top