P
Pax
Guest
The following may be helpful in seeing the relationship of the mass as a sacrifice and the Eucharist as a sacrifice:
newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm
- Status
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
thanks. different perspectives on the same thing can be confusing.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Robert Heibel:
Yes… because of what i’ve read…
No, not just because of what someone told me. (Any more than you do)
Yes… because of the holy lives that the faithful leaders of this church have led and the many many acknowleged holy lives of her members over the last 2,000 years.
Yes… most definitely because of how true the church is to living the Word of God
Yes… because Jesus told me He was building a church and that Peter was the human foundation of that by His own choice. Matthew 16: 18 and 18:16.
At about age 71, don’t you think it’s about time you looked into all this for yourself as opposed to what you have been told about the Catholic Church?
How do I know? because I have taken the time to examine the teachings of thwe Catholic Church according to the Word of God and I have discovered that they do indeed teach the fullness of the the Gospel and that all those outside the Catholic Church do not.
I left the faith at about age 17 and wasted some 34 years, and a “Jesus Freak”, Southern Baptist, Assembly of God (deacon) and then a non-denom and unchurched. All that right up until someone attacked the Catholic Church in my presence and when I stood up for the them because I knew the allegation was false, (and was duly put down for defending them), I began to research it all to see if I was somehow wrong. That led me to the realization that the non-Catholic churches are fraught with the teachings and doctrines of men and the new winds of doctrine that began to blow into Christianity in the 1500s or so.
I am very well read in the Bible, having read it all many times, and continue to do so. I find that non-Catholics ignore, rationalize, or pull passages of the Bible out of context to keep from having to accept that the teachings of the Catholic Church are supported by the Word of God.
I have heard so many weird teachings from n-C preachers, that with very few exceptions, I don’t even listen to or read their stuff any more. I don’t have the time for half truths and rationalizations.
Pax tecum,
You asked for this…
Yes… because of what i’ve read…
No, not just because of what someone told me. (Any more than you do)
Yes… because of the holy lives that the faithful leaders of this church have led and the many many acknowleged holy lives of her members over the last 2,000 years.
Yes… most definitely because of how true the church is to living the Word of God
Yes… because Jesus told me He was building a church and that Peter was the human foundation of that by His own choice. Matthew 16: 18 and 18:16.
At about age 71, don’t you think it’s about time you looked into all this for yourself as opposed to what you have been told about the Catholic Church?
How do I know? because I have taken the time to examine the teachings of thwe Catholic Church according to the Word of God and I have discovered that they do indeed teach the fullness of the the Gospel and that all those outside the Catholic Church do not.
I left the faith at about age 17 and wasted some 34 years, and a “Jesus Freak”, Southern Baptist, Assembly of God (deacon) and then a non-denom and unchurched. All that right up until someone attacked the Catholic Church in my presence and when I stood up for the them because I knew the allegation was false, (and was duly put down for defending them), I began to research it all to see if I was somehow wrong. That led me to the realization that the non-Catholic churches are fraught with the teachings and doctrines of men and the new winds of doctrine that began to blow into Christianity in the 1500s or so.
I am very well read in the Bible, having read it all many times, and continue to do so. I find that non-Catholics ignore, rationalize, or pull passages of the Bible out of context to keep from having to accept that the teachings of the Catholic Church are supported by the Word of God.
I have heard so many weird teachings from n-C preachers, that with very few exceptions, I don’t even listen to or read their stuff any more. I don’t have the time for half truths and rationalizations.
Pax tecum,
R
reen12
Guest
Oh, for heaven’s sake,
“the Mass, as sacrifice”
as in: the sacrifice of the Mass
What, for the love of heaven, are they calling it *now *?
It’s one of the things I’ve loved about Catholicism,
these 59 years.
Hmmmm.
But, then, that’s the hallmark of the RCC,
in terms of scripture, in the view of this blessed
assurance sheep.
[If someone said* anything,* render it into
a definition, fast*.* Before someone reads
what it actually says [or does not say]
in context.]
I’m hiding out, with the Good Shepherd, in
*His *tall grass…aka Green Pastures.
There’s not a library …or a definition…in sight.
Just the Shepherd, the sheep, and prayers…
which sheep sound, for all the world, like they’re bleating
with contentment.
reen12
“the Mass, as sacrifice”
as in: the sacrifice of the Mass
What, for the love of heaven, are they calling it *now *?
It’s one of the things I’ve loved about Catholicism,
these 59 years.
Hmmmm.
But, then, that’s the hallmark of the RCC,
in terms of scripture, in the view of this blessed
assurance sheep.
[If someone said* anything,* render it into
a definition, fast*.* Before someone reads
what it actually says [or does not say]
in context.]
I’m hiding out, with the Good Shepherd, in
*His *tall grass…aka Green Pastures.
There’s not a library …or a definition…in sight.
Just the Shepherd, the sheep, and prayers…
which sheep sound, for all the world, like they’re bleating
with contentment.
reen12
P
Pax
Guest
Robert Heibel:
There is a man named Neale Donald Walsch and he is the author of a series of books. The first in the series is entitled, *Conversations with God : An Uncommon Dialogue. * Mr. Walsch contends that he has conversations with God and that he is giving us the word of God. He does this by asking questions of God, and he believes, or at least claims, that God answers him. The book series by Mr. Walsch has been pretty successful. An individual at my place of work raved about Walsch and suggested that I read his books. I read a couple of them and did not come away with the enthusiasm of my co-worker.
Please note that Mr. Walsch is a former Catholic, as are you, and he makes the same sort of claims to propehcy that you do, and he says that his message comes directly from God. The messages given to Mr. Walsch differ a great deal from the messages that you have relayed to us except in a couple of important details. Mr. Walsch says that all anyone has to do is simply ask God and He will give the person the answer. You state that all a person has to do is ask Jesus and that He will give the person the answer. Since Jesus is God, I think it is fair to say that you are both in agreement on this point. Another thing that you and Mr. Walsch seemingly agree on is the insignificance of the Church.
Now comes the interesting and more difficult part. The answers that you and Mr. Walsch receive differ greatly on virtually everything else that you have shared with us. Who should we believe? I have tested Mr. Walsch’s “inspired” answers against scripture and find them totally unconvincing. In fact much of what he says is simply antithetical to Christianity. Now suppose that I am mistaken in how I see things. Suppose that I am mislead in my beliefs. Suppose that I honestly pray and that I dearly love the Lord, and that the Holy Spirit has, in my mind, given me a level of conviction that cannot be shaken. I have taken your advice and I have asked Jesus for an answer.
In all of this the Lord has told me that Mr. Walsch, who has a wide and enthusiastic readership, is completely off the deep end. The Lord has also provided me with a deeply held conviction that some of what you believe and have related to us is not true. You, however, are convinced and feel confident that you possess the truth that is from Jesus, himself. How do I know that you are right and telling the truth of the Lord, and that Mr. Walsch is wrong. If I am right about Mr. Walsch being completely off the path of truth because the Holy Spirit convicts me of this, then why would I be wrong about some of the things you are telling me when I have the same level of spiritual conviction and confidence?
If you go to a book store and peruse the writings of Mr. Walsch, I think that you will disagree with almost everything he says. The problem is that he claims that it comes directly from God. I asked the Lord whether or not what Mr. Walsch says is right or wrong. The answer was that virtually everything that Mr. Walsch says is wrong. I asked Jesus about the things you have said, and the answer was that a number of things that you have been saying are wrong, while some of what you say is right.
What now?
Robert,
There is a man named Neale Donald Walsch and he is the author of a series of books. The first in the series is entitled, *Conversations with God : An Uncommon Dialogue. * Mr. Walsch contends that he has conversations with God and that he is giving us the word of God. He does this by asking questions of God, and he believes, or at least claims, that God answers him. The book series by Mr. Walsch has been pretty successful. An individual at my place of work raved about Walsch and suggested that I read his books. I read a couple of them and did not come away with the enthusiasm of my co-worker.
Please note that Mr. Walsch is a former Catholic, as are you, and he makes the same sort of claims to propehcy that you do, and he says that his message comes directly from God. The messages given to Mr. Walsch differ a great deal from the messages that you have relayed to us except in a couple of important details. Mr. Walsch says that all anyone has to do is simply ask God and He will give the person the answer. You state that all a person has to do is ask Jesus and that He will give the person the answer. Since Jesus is God, I think it is fair to say that you are both in agreement on this point. Another thing that you and Mr. Walsch seemingly agree on is the insignificance of the Church.
Now comes the interesting and more difficult part. The answers that you and Mr. Walsch receive differ greatly on virtually everything else that you have shared with us. Who should we believe? I have tested Mr. Walsch’s “inspired” answers against scripture and find them totally unconvincing. In fact much of what he says is simply antithetical to Christianity. Now suppose that I am mistaken in how I see things. Suppose that I am mislead in my beliefs. Suppose that I honestly pray and that I dearly love the Lord, and that the Holy Spirit has, in my mind, given me a level of conviction that cannot be shaken. I have taken your advice and I have asked Jesus for an answer.
In all of this the Lord has told me that Mr. Walsch, who has a wide and enthusiastic readership, is completely off the deep end. The Lord has also provided me with a deeply held conviction that some of what you believe and have related to us is not true. You, however, are convinced and feel confident that you possess the truth that is from Jesus, himself. How do I know that you are right and telling the truth of the Lord, and that Mr. Walsch is wrong. If I am right about Mr. Walsch being completely off the path of truth because the Holy Spirit convicts me of this, then why would I be wrong about some of the things you are telling me when I have the same level of spiritual conviction and confidence?
If you go to a book store and peruse the writings of Mr. Walsch, I think that you will disagree with almost everything he says. The problem is that he claims that it comes directly from God. I asked the Lord whether or not what Mr. Walsch says is right or wrong. The answer was that virtually everything that Mr. Walsch says is wrong. I asked Jesus about the things you have said, and the answer was that a number of things that you have been saying are wrong, while some of what you say is right.
What now?
C
Church_Militant
Guest
This is a ludicrous statement since all the apostles and even Kind David, Moses Joshua, Samuel, Isaiah and pretty much every man of God from Adam on has “deliberately sinned” at some point and yet God used them to lead His people. By this you seem to imply that you are personally sinless. Is that your intent?
You are saying then that all the apostles were sinless? That’s plainly wrong since Judas Iscariot was an apostle just like the rest and yet he sold Jesus out.
Peter was the chief apostle commanded to “feed my lambs…feed my sheep” and even given the keys to the kingdom of Heaven and renamed Cephas (Rock) that the church would be built upon. Yet he denied Jesus 3 times, did violence to the chief priest’s servant, cursed and swore, and even tried to dissuade Jesus from going to Jerusalem to fulfill the prophesies of his death.
St. Thomas doubted, James and John wanted to rule alongside Jesus, and all of them fled and hid. Yet these are the men that Jesus picked and who He used to spread the good news all over the world.
You’re pretty brazen in your criticism of the church. I’d really like you to enlighten us all as to all this error that this supposed spirit has been leading the church into for all this long time.
Individual members of the body of Christ may indeed sin and yet that certainly does not derail the promise of Christ Himself to be with us always and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Your reference to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is in error as well, since St. Peter sinned and was rebuked by St. Paul after the day of Pentecost. (Acts 15, & Galatians 2:11-15) Note also that these men were all “spirit filled” and yet “there arose a dissension” that caused Paul and Barnabas to part company. And we know that such things are sin…
Paul lied during one of his trials! Acts Of Apostles 23:6 And Paul knowing that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, cried out in the council: Men, brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of Pharisees: concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. That was not the truth… Paul was on trial for being a Christian…not for just believing in the resurrection of the dead. Yet this was a holy man of God and very mightily used by God. Does this mean that we should toss all of St. Paul’s writings? God forbid!
If, by “the church”, you mean the Catholic Church is blind to the truth, then I am offended, since you have proved so far that either “You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29), or you yourself have been somehow led astray from what the Word of God plainly says.
Pax tecum,
R
Robert_Heibel
Guest
Church Militant:
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
(Hebrews 6:4-8) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him. A field that has been well watered by frequent rain and gives the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, is given god’s blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is abandoned, and practically cursed. It will end by being burnt.”
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will b left only the dreadful prospect of judgement and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.
How Can I explain this to you? You need to see that after a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit, and gets to know God, that person can’t sin. Read the following Scriptures carefullyThis is a ludicrous statement since all the apostles and even Kind David, Moses Joshua, Samuel, Isaiah and pretty much every man of God from Adam on has “deliberately sinned” at some point and yet God used them to lead His people. By this you seem to imply that you are personally sinless. Is that your intent?
You are saying then that all the apostles were sinless? That’s plainly wrong since Judas Iscariot was an apostle just like the rest and yet he sold Jesus out.
Peter was the chief apostle commanded to “feed my lambs…feed my sheep” and even given the keys to the kingdom of Heaven and renamed Cephas (Rock) that the church would be built upon. Yet he denied Jesus 3 times, did violence to the chief priest’s servant, cursed and swore, and even tried to dissuade Jesus from going to Jerusalem to fulfill the prophesies of his death.
St. Thomas doubted, James and John wanted to rule alongside Jesus, and all of them fled and hid. Yet these are the men that Jesus picked and who He used to spread the good news all over the world.
You’re pretty brazen in your criticism of the church. I’d really like you to enlighten us all as to all this error that this supposed spirit has been leading the church into for all this long time.
Individual members of the body of Christ may indeed sin and yet that certainly does not derail the promise of Christ Himself to be with us always and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Your reference to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is in error as well, since St. Peter sinned and was rebuked by St. Paul after the day of Pentecost. (Acts 15, & Galatians 2:11-15) Note also that these men were all “spirit filled” and yet “there arose a dissension” that caused Paul and Barnabas to part company. And we know that such things are sin…
Paul lied during one of his trials! Acts Of Apostles 23:6 And Paul knowing that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, cried out in the council: Men, brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of Pharisees: concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. That was not the truth… Paul was on trial for being a Christian…not for just believing in the resurrection of the dead. Yet this was a holy man of God and very mightily used by God. Does this mean that we should toss all of St. Paul’s writings? God forbid! You! Calling Paul a sinner? How you misunderstand this Scripture, how are you going to understand any Scripture?
If, by “the church”, you mean the Catholic Church is blind to the truth, then I am offended, since you have proved so far that either “You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29), or you yourself have been somehow led astray from what the Word of God plainly says.
Pax tecum,
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
(Hebrews 6:4-8) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him. A field that has been well watered by frequent rain and gives the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, is given god’s blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is abandoned, and practically cursed. It will end by being burnt.”
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will b left only the dreadful prospect of judgement and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.
R
reen12
Guest
quote: Robert Heibel
and to that poor sheep, entagled in the shrubs, who the
Shepherd set out to resuce and *return *to the flock.
The synoptic imagery was provided, by God, for a reason, I think.
Best,
reen12
This position would come as news to the Prodigal Son,
and to that poor sheep, entagled in the shrubs, who the
Shepherd set out to resuce and *return *to the flock.
The synoptic imagery was provided, by God, for a reason, I think.
Best,
reen12
R
Robert_Heibel
Guest
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
(Hebrews 6:4-8) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him. A field that has been well watered by frequent rain and gives the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, is given god’s blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is abandoned, and practically cursed. It will end by being burnt.”
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will b left only the dreadful prospect of judgement and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”
So your feelings and thinking make John and the writers of the Bible wrong, my! my! It is hard to accept something you don’t understand isn’t it?
P
Pax
Guest
Robert Heibel said:
Robert,
I have already used scripture to show you the problems with what you are currently claiming. Please go back and read my posts and then “refute” those scriptures using sound exegesis and common sense. So far you have failed numerous times to engage us in an exchange that encompasses all of the scriptures. Instead, you merely push forward with your own agenda ignoring the word of God presented in scripture that puts the above quotes into their proper perspective.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Robert Heibel:
James 5:14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
You have somehow missed almost the entire context of all the epistles in the New Testament! Virtually every single one of them is written to believers (Look at the opening verses of almost all of them!) and they all deal with some sin that was besetting the people that were in every one of those churches, so your belief that “the baptsim of the Holy Spirit” somehow makes us sinless thereafter is not a New Testament teaching.
Pax tecum,
This is anything but a New Testament doctrine and you are in serious error Robert. I offer you the same advice that you have handed to us. (see the bolded line in your quote)
I encourage you to read that whole chapter (at least) and the whole epistle for context.
James 5:14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
You have somehow missed almost the entire context of all the epistles in the New Testament! Virtually every single one of them is written to believers (Look at the opening verses of almost all of them!) and they all deal with some sin that was besetting the people that were in every one of those churches, so your belief that “the baptsim of the Holy Spirit” somehow makes us sinless thereafter is not a New Testament teaching.
Pax tecum,
M
mercygate
Guest
Yup. Why would Jesus give us a prayer that says: “Forgive us our trespasses” if he did not expect that we would need to be forgiven?
R
reen12
Guest
Hi, mercygate,
quote: mercygate
reen
quote: mercygate
Great reply!
reen
P
Pax
Guest
Robert,
I have some questions for you. Why is it that only the verses of scripture that you choose to quote are of significance when it comes to undertanding the word of God? The bible is made up of many books and all of them are the inspired word of God. Don’t the other passages of scripture that pertain to sin, repentance, and forgiveness have significance? Why is it that you refuse to admit it when you are wrong? A case in point is the example of Peter and Barnabas behaving hypocritically before the circumcision party. You have not acknowledged that this was sinful behavior and that you were wrong in your contention that they had completely ceased to sin. Since you are seemingly unconvinced by this clear example I will give you another scriptural reference. Please read Romans 7:14-25. In this passage, Paul talks about his difficulty in avoiding sin and that he sometimes does things that he shouldn’t do. Paul was one saved dude, but he still sinned. Paul, like everyone else, places himself at the mercy of God and no doubt sought forgiveness whenever he fell.
Your push for holiness and sinlessness is admirable in so far as it directs us toward our final sanctification by Jesus through the Holy Spirit, but you are wrong to suggest that the saved never sin. Furthermore, you are wrong to make the slanderous claims you make against the Church and its leaders. Everything we have said to you has been backed up with scripture. Scripture is the inspired word of God, and God does not change[Mal 3:6]. We have taken the scriptures you have given us and we have placed them in the greater context of scripture to show you that members of Christ’s body do in fact sin. So far you have not refuted the verses we have used and you have not given us any reason to accept your position.
I have some questions for you. Why is it that only the verses of scripture that you choose to quote are of significance when it comes to undertanding the word of God? The bible is made up of many books and all of them are the inspired word of God. Don’t the other passages of scripture that pertain to sin, repentance, and forgiveness have significance? Why is it that you refuse to admit it when you are wrong? A case in point is the example of Peter and Barnabas behaving hypocritically before the circumcision party. You have not acknowledged that this was sinful behavior and that you were wrong in your contention that they had completely ceased to sin. Since you are seemingly unconvinced by this clear example I will give you another scriptural reference. Please read Romans 7:14-25. In this passage, Paul talks about his difficulty in avoiding sin and that he sometimes does things that he shouldn’t do. Paul was one saved dude, but he still sinned. Paul, like everyone else, places himself at the mercy of God and no doubt sought forgiveness whenever he fell.
Your push for holiness and sinlessness is admirable in so far as it directs us toward our final sanctification by Jesus through the Holy Spirit, but you are wrong to suggest that the saved never sin. Furthermore, you are wrong to make the slanderous claims you make against the Church and its leaders. Everything we have said to you has been backed up with scripture. Scripture is the inspired word of God, and God does not change[Mal 3:6]. We have taken the scriptures you have given us and we have placed them in the greater context of scripture to show you that members of Christ’s body do in fact sin. So far you have not refuted the verses we have used and you have not given us any reason to accept your position.
P
Pax
Guest
Robert,
Here are some more scripture passages for you to pray and reflect upon.
Acts 20:28-30
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
1 Cor 11:16-19
If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God. But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.
1 Cor 14:33
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
Eph 3:20-21
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim 3:1-7
THE SAYING is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil; moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders, or he may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
James 5:19-20
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
3 John 1:8-9
So we ought to support such men, that we may be fellow workers in the truth. I have written something to the church; but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority.
Romans 13:1-2
LET EVERY person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
2 Corinthians 10:1-6
I, PAUL, myself entreat you, by the meekness and gentleness of Christ–I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold to you when I am away!–I beg of you that when I am present I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against some who suspect us of acting in worldly fashion. For though we live in the world we are not carrying on a worldly war, for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
2 Corinthians 13:10
I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.
Titus 2:15
Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Here are some more scripture passages for you to pray and reflect upon.
Acts 20:28-30
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
1 Cor 11:16-19
If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God. But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.
1 Cor 14:33
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
Eph 3:20-21
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim 3:1-7
THE SAYING is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil; moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders, or he may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
James 5:19-20
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
3 John 1:8-9
So we ought to support such men, that we may be fellow workers in the truth. I have written something to the church; but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority.
Romans 13:1-2
LET EVERY person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
2 Corinthians 10:1-6
I, PAUL, myself entreat you, by the meekness and gentleness of Christ–I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold to you when I am away!–I beg of you that when I am present I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against some who suspect us of acting in worldly fashion. For though we live in the world we are not carrying on a worldly war, for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
2 Corinthians 13:10
I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.
Titus 2:15
Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
R
Robert_Heibel
Guest
I know these Scriptures well. What is your point?
R
reen12
Guest
Dear Robert Heibel,
quote: Robert Heibel
reading ----> the Synoptic Gospels.
In your last reply to me, I counted 4 references to Paul
and one to John.
Of course, Paul was giving us a commentary, [containing
doctrinal insight], into the life and words of Jesus - which, while
inspired by God - is a work of such commentary - and not the
fulsome account of the life and words of Jesus, presented
to us -in the Synoptic gospels.
And while reference is made to: if all that Jesus had
said and done were written down…the point is, plenty
of it was “written down”…in the Synoptics.
The words of Matthew, Mark and Luke are open to all comers,
just as God intended them to be.
If we wish to understand, I believe both the synoptics
and St. Paul must be taken into account.
Best, :tiphat:
reen12
quote: Robert Heibel
It has little to do with “feeling” and everything to do with
reading ----> the Synoptic Gospels.
In your last reply to me, I counted 4 references to Paul
and one to John.
Of course, Paul was giving us a commentary, [containing
doctrinal insight], into the life and words of Jesus - which, while
inspired by God - is a work of such commentary - and not the
fulsome account of the life and words of Jesus, presented
to us -in the Synoptic gospels.
And while reference is made to: if all that Jesus had
said and done were written down…the point is, plenty
of it was “written down”…in the Synoptics.
The words of Matthew, Mark and Luke are open to all comers,
just as God intended them to be.
If we wish to understand, I believe both the synoptics
and St. Paul must be taken into account.
Best, :tiphat:
reen12
R
Robert_Heibel
Guest
Church Militant:
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
You should be able to see that at first John was addressing Christians (people) who were not as of yet brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come. Or you are making John out to be a liar.
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
P
Pax
Guest
Robert Heibel:
If you knew these scriptures well, then you would not make the claims that you are making. Let’s just start with the first one.
Acts 20:28-30
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Please notice that this is a warning to bishops. These are people who have received the Holy Spirit and have been appointed bishops(overseers) in the church. The passage even shows that there will be some bad bishops from their own group. This passage denies your understanding that “no one” sins after receiving the Holy Spirit and that even bishops can be serious sinners. Those facts do not change the position and authority of the Church.
Now let’s take the next passage.
1 Cor 11:16-19
If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God. But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.
Paul is correcting the Church at Corinth for the wrong doings and factions that were occurring among the local Christians. Once again, this denies your argument.
Let’s now go to:
1 Tim 3:1-7
THE SAYING is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil; moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders, or he may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Please notice that Paul is concerned about the qualities and qualification for a bishop. Notice that Paul indicates that a person could be a Christian but that they may have faults that would mean they would potentially be a bad bishop. He even points out that a recent convert, without any described faults, could become puffed up with conceit and fall into condemnation of the devel. Notice the last verse. Paul indicates that a Christian/bishop may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Does this match your contentions? I do not believe so.
Let’s now go to:
James 5:19-20
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Please notice that James is referring to a Christian that wanders from the truth and refers to him as a sinner. He then goes on to show that this sinner can be brought back into the fold and that his soul can be saved from death. Again this clearly denies what you have been saying about Christians never sinning.
I could go on but surely you get the idea.
Robert,
If you knew these scriptures well, then you would not make the claims that you are making. Let’s just start with the first one.
Acts 20:28-30
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Please notice that this is a warning to bishops. These are people who have received the Holy Spirit and have been appointed bishops(overseers) in the church. The passage even shows that there will be some bad bishops from their own group. This passage denies your understanding that “no one” sins after receiving the Holy Spirit and that even bishops can be serious sinners. Those facts do not change the position and authority of the Church.
Now let’s take the next passage.
1 Cor 11:16-19
If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God. But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.
Paul is correcting the Church at Corinth for the wrong doings and factions that were occurring among the local Christians. Once again, this denies your argument.
Let’s now go to:
1 Tim 3:1-7
THE SAYING is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil; moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders, or he may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Please notice that Paul is concerned about the qualities and qualification for a bishop. Notice that Paul indicates that a person could be a Christian but that they may have faults that would mean they would potentially be a bad bishop. He even points out that a recent convert, without any described faults, could become puffed up with conceit and fall into condemnation of the devel. Notice the last verse. Paul indicates that a Christian/bishop may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Does this match your contentions? I do not believe so.
Let’s now go to:
James 5:19-20
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Please notice that James is referring to a Christian that wanders from the truth and refers to him as a sinner. He then goes on to show that this sinner can be brought back into the fold and that his soul can be saved from death. Again this clearly denies what you have been saying about Christians never sinning.
I could go on but surely you get the idea.
P
Pax
Guest
Robert Heibel:
Your statement is illogical and does not coincide with the definition of a Christian. A person is not a Christian if they have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit either in baptism by water, blood, or desire. For you to suggest that John isn’t addressing full Christians is utter nonsense.
- Status