R
Robert_Heibel
Guest
Well, I’ll Just have to ask Jesus if your right. That is what everyone should do.
- Status
Well, I’ll Just have to ask Jesus if your right. That is what everyone should do.
R
Robert_Heibel
Guest
Robert Heibel:
I listen to people talk about God and then I take what they say to Jesus to see if it is right or wrong. Sometimes He may explain what they said in a way that I could understand it better or let me know if what they said was right or wrong. I am not responsible for what the other person believes. If they have a relationship with God in the end we will be in agreement.
I listen to people talk about God and then I take what they say to Jesus to see if it is right or wrong. Sometimes He may explain what they said in a way that I could understand it better or let me know if what they said was right or wrong. I am not responsible for what the other person believes. If they have a relationship with God in the end we will be in agreement.
E
Eden
Guest
Robert Heibel:
O.K. But please don’t tell me (or anyone) what he told you in relation to what I (or anyone else) should do. Once you transfer that message from Jesus through you to me - you are creating an intermediary between the Lord and me.
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
Robert Heibel:
The spirit of division is the spirit of the evil one.
Okay, and if we all do that and all get different answers, then what? (You do know that this is what usually happens, don’t you?)
The spirit of division is the spirit of the evil one.
P
Pax
Guest
Robert Heibel:
I have responded to a number of posts that you have made in other threads that express the same theme that you are espousing in this one. Please be advised that whatever is going on within you is not “all Jesus.” This is not to suggest that anything satanic is going on either. Please think carefully and pray about the many things that have been said to you thus far.
I have picked this particular post to make an important point that strikes at the heart of the matter at hand. You have improperly understood the quote you used from John 16:13. When Jesus made the statement concerning the Holy Spirit he was speaking to the twelve apostles and is not making a statement that can be used to justify your contentions about individual Christians. This is confirmed by Jesus prayers in John 17. Jesus says [see John 17:17-19] “Sanctify them[the apostles] in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.” Please notice that Jesus is consecrating the apostles in truth just as he promised he would send the Holy Spirit to them and that they would be led unto all truth in John 16:13.
Then Jesus goes on to say the following in verses 20-23, “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.” The truth and unity that Jesus promises comes by way of the teaching of the apostles. This teaching is preserved and promulgated through the church which “is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”[1 Tim 3:15]
We all know that we must study and that we need teachers. We all know from scripture that teachers and elders are appointed in the church. Your position dismisses this set of biblical facts. You have told us to ignore the church, bishops, priests, and our teachers which are part of the biblical instructions given to us. The bible is the inspired word of God and does not change. You are asking us to live contrary to the word of God.
We are warned in scripture not to do these things. In 2 Peter 1:20 we are warned about personal interpretation of scripture. This is followed by an additional warning in 2 Peter 3:15-18 where the apostle describes how individuals twist Pauls words and the other scriptures to their own destruction.
The apostle John warns us about false teachers and those that operate in the spirit of the anti-Christ. John tells us “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”[1 John 2:19] If you reject the Church and its authority than you have gone out of the Church and you are not of the Church which is the body of Christ.
Please give this serious reflection. You are talking about the “bride” of Christ. You are talking about the “body” of Christ. Jesus will never leave his church. He so intimately identifies himself with the church that he confronts Paul on the road to Damascus and says, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; Acts 9:1-5 (cf. Acts 22:4-7, Acts 26:9-15)
Your position is scripturally untenable. Something is amiss in the way you understand scripture and the Lord. Could it be that some of your own thinking is what you are actually hearing and that it isn’t all the words of Jesus?
Robert,
I have responded to a number of posts that you have made in other threads that express the same theme that you are espousing in this one. Please be advised that whatever is going on within you is not “all Jesus.” This is not to suggest that anything satanic is going on either. Please think carefully and pray about the many things that have been said to you thus far.
I have picked this particular post to make an important point that strikes at the heart of the matter at hand. You have improperly understood the quote you used from John 16:13. When Jesus made the statement concerning the Holy Spirit he was speaking to the twelve apostles and is not making a statement that can be used to justify your contentions about individual Christians. This is confirmed by Jesus prayers in John 17. Jesus says [see John 17:17-19] “Sanctify them[the apostles] in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.” Please notice that Jesus is consecrating the apostles in truth just as he promised he would send the Holy Spirit to them and that they would be led unto all truth in John 16:13.
Then Jesus goes on to say the following in verses 20-23, “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.” The truth and unity that Jesus promises comes by way of the teaching of the apostles. This teaching is preserved and promulgated through the church which “is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”[1 Tim 3:15]
We all know that we must study and that we need teachers. We all know from scripture that teachers and elders are appointed in the church. Your position dismisses this set of biblical facts. You have told us to ignore the church, bishops, priests, and our teachers which are part of the biblical instructions given to us. The bible is the inspired word of God and does not change. You are asking us to live contrary to the word of God.
We are warned in scripture not to do these things. In 2 Peter 1:20 we are warned about personal interpretation of scripture. This is followed by an additional warning in 2 Peter 3:15-18 where the apostle describes how individuals twist Pauls words and the other scriptures to their own destruction.
The apostle John warns us about false teachers and those that operate in the spirit of the anti-Christ. John tells us “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”[1 John 2:19] If you reject the Church and its authority than you have gone out of the Church and you are not of the Church which is the body of Christ.
Please give this serious reflection. You are talking about the “bride” of Christ. You are talking about the “body” of Christ. Jesus will never leave his church. He so intimately identifies himself with the church that he confronts Paul on the road to Damascus and says, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; Acts 9:1-5 (cf. Acts 22:4-7, Acts 26:9-15)
Your position is scripturally untenable. Something is amiss in the way you understand scripture and the Lord. Could it be that some of your own thinking is what you are actually hearing and that it isn’t all the words of Jesus?
R
Robert_Heibel
Guest
You say I am wrong well you need to read a little more of John. (John 17:20) “I pray not only for these, but for those also who through their words will believe in me. My they all be one.” Now Jesus said we would all be one, so there is no difference between the gifts God gave the Apostles and us.
(2 Peter 1:20-21) “At the same time, we must be most careful to remember that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual. Why? Because no prophecy ever came from man’s initiative. When men spoke for God it was the Holy Spirit that moved them.” If we are walking in the gift prophecy, then we bring words to the Church from the Holy Spirit.
(1 Corinthians 14:3-4) “On the other hand, the man who prophesies does talk to other people, to their improvement, their encouragement and their consolation. The one with the gift of tongues talks for his own benefit, but the man who prophesies does so for the benefit of the community.”
S
sara888
Guest
**Robert:
Robert, does Jesus literally speak to you,? he gave us the apostles, Priest, Pastors,church leaders, etc, to teach Christians his word and to spread his word. We never self interpret on our own the bible which is the inspired word of God.
You also fail to interpret Gods whole word. You speak as if you are a gifted prophet, without giving any respect and or credit to many theologians, biblical scholars, and church leaders.
You are a novice with Catholic/Protestant Theology.
Remember the bible contains many requirements, and requests from the Lord. To reiterate you are not interpreting or understanding Gods whole word .
Sara**…
Robert, does Jesus literally speak to you,? he gave us the apostles, Priest, Pastors,church leaders, etc, to teach Christians his word and to spread his word. We never self interpret on our own the bible which is the inspired word of God.
You also fail to interpret Gods whole word. You speak as if you are a gifted prophet, without giving any respect and or credit to many theologians, biblical scholars, and church leaders.
You are a novice with Catholic/Protestant Theology.
Remember the bible contains many requirements, and requests from the Lord. To reiterate you are not interpreting or understanding Gods whole word .
Sara**…
P
Pax
Guest
Robert Heibel:
Romans 12:6 says,
“Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us,”
1 Cor 12:4-11
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."
1 Cor 12:28-31
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
Robert Heibel:
Here are a few more verses concerning the Church that Jesus established. And remember, this is the Church that he promised to be with until the end of the age, and that even the gates of hell would never prevail against it.
Matthew 18:17
“…tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector”
Ephesians 3:10-13
“through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which He has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in Him.”
Matthew 24:35
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away”
You have just made another error and an obvious one. The fact that Jesus is praying for unity does not mean that there are no differences in the gifts given to the apostles and to us. There is no logical, linguistic, or exegetical connection between the statements in the quote and your conclusion. Besides there are other places in scripture that deny your contention. For example:
Romans 12:6 says,
“Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us,”
1 Cor 12:4-11
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."
1 Cor 12:28-31
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
Robert Heibel:
You are confusing the interpretation of scripture with a gift of prophecy. Not only that, you are ignoring the fact that no gift of prophecy can contradict the inspired word of God. Some of your claims contradict the promises of Christ in scripture. If you believe that you have a gift of prophecy then you should test it against scripture. You seem to think that you have done this, but it has been demonstrated that some of your ideas are contrary to the bible. This is particularly true in your claims concerning the Church, bishops, and teachers. You have placed your own claims above those of scripture and the church which is the body of Christ.
Here are a few more verses concerning the Church that Jesus established. And remember, this is the Church that he promised to be with until the end of the age, and that even the gates of hell would never prevail against it.
Matthew 18:17
“…tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector”
Ephesians 3:10-13
“through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which He has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in Him.”
Matthew 24:35
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away”
S
sara888
Guest
**Pax,
I must say, you should be teaching Catholic Theology, you are gifted and brilliant with Catholic doctrine.
Again, Well said, pure genius.!
Sara**
I must say, you should be teaching Catholic Theology, you are gifted and brilliant with Catholic doctrine.
Again, Well said, pure genius.!
Sara**
P
Pax
Guest
sara888,
Thanks for the kind words…even if they were way over the top.
God bless you.
Thanks for the kind words…even if they were way over the top.
God bless you.
S
sara888
Guest
**And Humble, WOW.! Good for you , God Bless you too, Genius.!
Sara**
Sara**
R
Robert_Heibel
Guest
The true church of God are those who hear the word of God and live It. The Catholic Church hasn’t lived the Word of God for a long time.
The Christian people have formed many different churches most all of them believing theirs is the true church. The Greek Orthodox, Eastern Catholic Church, says that the Roman Catholic Church is the first church that broke away from the original church, which was formed by Jesus and organized by the first apostles. The Roman Catholic Church says it is the one true church, because Jesus built His church upon Peter and Peter lived in Rome and his successors had to come from there. The Roman Catholic Church became so corrupt that many people had to leave and form other denominations. Christian churches are still breaking up and forming different churches today.
Almost all the Christian churches believe their way of interpreting the Word of God was given to them by God.I would like to share some Scriptures, and after you read these Scriptures, instead of accepting your Churches interpretation, go to Jesus and ask Him what they mean. I have to use individual Scripture, because it is not practical to write out the whole New testament, but when Jesus teaches you what they mean He will make sure there not out of context.
(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”
(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
P
Pax
Guest
Robert Heibel:
The true church of God is made up of sinners. This is made clear in Matthew 9:10-12 where we read the following: " And as he sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.”
The church is a hospital for sinners. The church contains both the wheat and the tares. Paul is continually castigating the members of the churches in his epistles. In the book of Revelation, Jesus tells John to write certain warnings to the seven churches. In each message to the churches, Jesus warns them of the short comings and sins within them. The true church of God has sinners in it and some of them are pretty serious sinners. Your claim that the Catholic Church hasn’t lived the word of God for a long time and that it isn’t the true church, simply isn’t consistent with scripture. If you think that moral perfection is the all encompassing criteria for which Church is the true one than even your loose definition of your “invisible” church fails to pass the test.
Robert Heibel:
Robert,
The true church of God is made up of sinners. This is made clear in Matthew 9:10-12 where we read the following: " And as he sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.”
The church is a hospital for sinners. The church contains both the wheat and the tares. Paul is continually castigating the members of the churches in his epistles. In the book of Revelation, Jesus tells John to write certain warnings to the seven churches. In each message to the churches, Jesus warns them of the short comings and sins within them. The true church of God has sinners in it and some of them are pretty serious sinners. Your claim that the Catholic Church hasn’t lived the word of God for a long time and that it isn’t the true church, simply isn’t consistent with scripture. If you think that moral perfection is the all encompassing criteria for which Church is the true one than even your loose definition of your “invisible” church fails to pass the test.
Robert Heibel:
I have read these verses and prayed about them on many occassions. I have also said a short prayer for insight in making my response to you. I think I understand these verses, but I fail to see how they refute anything that I have said to you so far. Perhaps, you could explain your use of these passages.
M
Magicsilence
Guest
Sigh.
Robert, you are confused.
This is not an either/or scenario.
The mystical body of Christ is represented in the fullest physical sense within the Catholic Church, She is guided by The Holy Spirit, never to teach error, infallibly protected.
All dogma she professes is straight from God, so to speak.
The fact that the men who run the Church are sinners is no surprise, even amongst the disciples, they occassionally argued as to who was more important.
However, we, as Catholics, do not say that only those who were recieved into the Catholic Church can display a catholic (notice small “c”) behaviour, as one who had comprehended the Word of God.
The Church Of Christ is very physical, but at the same time invisible, made up of those who are catholic by nature, but not Catholic by name. Christ knows those who are searching for Him, if they happen to die before they become Catholic, they will not be eternally damned, they belonged to the catholic church, that which is unseen.
Your position is strange to put it mildly, what you claim is in contrast with Christ, i wonder who is wrong…
In Christ.
Andre.
Robert, you are confused.
This is not an either/or scenario.
The mystical body of Christ is represented in the fullest physical sense within the Catholic Church, She is guided by The Holy Spirit, never to teach error, infallibly protected.
All dogma she professes is straight from God, so to speak.
The fact that the men who run the Church are sinners is no surprise, even amongst the disciples, they occassionally argued as to who was more important.
However, we, as Catholics, do not say that only those who were recieved into the Catholic Church can display a catholic (notice small “c”) behaviour, as one who had comprehended the Word of God.
The Church Of Christ is very physical, but at the same time invisible, made up of those who are catholic by nature, but not Catholic by name. Christ knows those who are searching for Him, if they happen to die before they become Catholic, they will not be eternally damned, they belonged to the catholic church, that which is unseen.
Your position is strange to put it mildly, what you claim is in contrast with Christ, i wonder who is wrong…
In Christ.
Andre.
R
Robert_Heibel
Guest
Read these Scriptures well. I don’t expect you to understand them, but pray God can do anything.
(Hebrews 6:4-8) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him. A field that has been well watered by frequent rain and gives the crops that are wanted by the owners who grew them, is given god’s blessing; but one that grows brambles and thistles is abandoned, and practically cursed. It will end by being burnt.”
(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will b left only the dreadful prospect of judgement and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Any person who knows God and deliberately sins is only fit for the fire. There is no way they could be fit to lead God’s Church! The spirit of error has been leading the church for a long time. How blind people in the church are to think the church is right no matter what it does. Going so far as to say that the apostils were sinners also, Wow! If they sinned it was before they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Remember (Acts 5:1-4) Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead for a lie. The Church is blind to the truth!!!
S
sara888
Guest
**Robert said:“Going so far as to say that the apostils were sinners also, Wow! If they sinned it was before they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Remember (Acts 5:1-4) Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead for a lie. The Church is blind to the truth!!!”
Did not Peter deny Christ,? He was baptized as one of the disciples of Christ
Do you believe you are sinless.?
Do you believe you cannot commit sin .?
your point is that the Catholic Church is not the true church, I feel you should check your history.
Also If only one Catholic remained on earth he would be the universal church.
Robert, Pride is a sin, the mother of all sin, you seem to believe you alone hold the truth’s to Gods word, and billions of Catholics and Orthodox Denominationals have somehow misinterpreted the word of the Lord.
Sara**
Did not Peter deny Christ,? He was baptized as one of the disciples of Christ
Do you believe you are sinless.?
Do you believe you cannot commit sin .?
your point is that the Catholic Church is not the true church, I feel you should check your history.
Also If only one Catholic remained on earth he would be the universal church.
Robert, Pride is a sin, the mother of all sin, you seem to believe you alone hold the truth’s to Gods word, and billions of Catholics and Orthodox Denominationals have somehow misinterpreted the word of the Lord.
Sara**
P
Pax
Guest
Robert,
Please be advised that it is a mistake to indescriminately mix scriptures. Hebrews 6:4-8 above clearly refers to “apostasy” which is a complete denial of of one’s religious faith including a rejection of Jesus as the son of God. No catholics that I know are in a state of apostasy nor is the church at large.
You have gone on to reference Hebrews 10:26-31 and have in your unexplored quote distorted the message of scripture. It is worthwhile to read more than one translation of scripture when it comes to appreciating the meaning of the verses. Moreover, it is important to utilize sound exegesis to know what it is meant. Hopefully this will help you. Other translations say the following:
– King James
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:26 If anyone sins deliberately by rejecting the Savior after knowing the truth of forgiveness, this sin is not covered by Christ’s death; there is no way to get rid of it.
– Revised Standard
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
– Simple English
Hebrews 10:26 We have received the truth; we know it. If we continue sinning on purpose, there will be no more sacrifices for sin,
– Young’s Bible
Hebrews 10:26 For we - willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth - no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,
– Darby’s Bible
Hebrews 10:26 For where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins,
– Weymouth’s New Testament
Hebrews 10:26 For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins.
– Webster’s Bible
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Please notice that none of the above translations use the words “any sin” as does the New Jerusalem Bible that you might be quoting from. This does not mean that there is anything wrong with that particular translation. It only means that you get a better picture of what the original means by exploring several translations. IMHO the verse means something more along the lines of willfully persistent/continual and deliberate sin against the Lord. This implies that a person doesn’t seek forgiveness and doesn’t make a concerted effort to stop sinning.
In a different thread you cited 1 John 5:18 which says, “We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.” You attempted to make the same argument as above using that quote. In that thread you were referred to 1 John 2:1 which says, “MY LITTLE children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;” In addition to this you were shown the verses in John’s letters that distinguish between mortal and non-mortal sins. You were even shown the verses from John and Paul that enumerate which specific unrepented sins bring condemnation. After all of this, you still persist in cherry picking scripture verses out of context in an effort to support your claims against the body of Christ.
Robert, you are only focused on the apparent sins within the body of Christ on earth and you are ignoring the beauty, truth, and holiness that are also contained therein. Please be aware that the church is currently imperfect but according to scripture that too will change. A passage of scripture that illuminates this is Ephesians 5: 25-27 which says: “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”
You also made the silly claim that someone in an earlier post made a mistake about the apostle’s having been sinners even after receiving the Holy Spirit. Please reference Galatians 2:11-13 where Paul confronts Peter and Barnabas for their hypocrisy in the face of the circumcision party. They apparently sinned.
Also be aware that it is sinful to make slanderous remarks about Catholics, the Catholic Church, or its leadership. Catholics do not blindly follow the Church. This kind of remark is totally unsubstantiated and cannot be justified in any way shape or form. At best, it is an uncharitable slam on your part.
I hope some of this helps.
Please be advised that it is a mistake to indescriminately mix scriptures. Hebrews 6:4-8 above clearly refers to “apostasy” which is a complete denial of of one’s religious faith including a rejection of Jesus as the son of God. No catholics that I know are in a state of apostasy nor is the church at large.
You have gone on to reference Hebrews 10:26-31 and have in your unexplored quote distorted the message of scripture. It is worthwhile to read more than one translation of scripture when it comes to appreciating the meaning of the verses. Moreover, it is important to utilize sound exegesis to know what it is meant. Hopefully this will help you. Other translations say the following:
– King James
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
- American Standard
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:26 If anyone sins deliberately by rejecting the Savior after knowing the truth of forgiveness, this sin is not covered by Christ’s death; there is no way to get rid of it.
– Revised Standard
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
– Simple English
Hebrews 10:26 We have received the truth; we know it. If we continue sinning on purpose, there will be no more sacrifices for sin,
– Young’s Bible
Hebrews 10:26 For we - willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth - no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,
– Darby’s Bible
Hebrews 10:26 For where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins,
– Weymouth’s New Testament
Hebrews 10:26 For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins.
– Webster’s Bible
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Please notice that none of the above translations use the words “any sin” as does the New Jerusalem Bible that you might be quoting from. This does not mean that there is anything wrong with that particular translation. It only means that you get a better picture of what the original means by exploring several translations. IMHO the verse means something more along the lines of willfully persistent/continual and deliberate sin against the Lord. This implies that a person doesn’t seek forgiveness and doesn’t make a concerted effort to stop sinning.
In a different thread you cited 1 John 5:18 which says, “We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.” You attempted to make the same argument as above using that quote. In that thread you were referred to 1 John 2:1 which says, “MY LITTLE children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;” In addition to this you were shown the verses in John’s letters that distinguish between mortal and non-mortal sins. You were even shown the verses from John and Paul that enumerate which specific unrepented sins bring condemnation. After all of this, you still persist in cherry picking scripture verses out of context in an effort to support your claims against the body of Christ.
Robert, you are only focused on the apparent sins within the body of Christ on earth and you are ignoring the beauty, truth, and holiness that are also contained therein. Please be aware that the church is currently imperfect but according to scripture that too will change. A passage of scripture that illuminates this is Ephesians 5: 25-27 which says: “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”
You also made the silly claim that someone in an earlier post made a mistake about the apostle’s having been sinners even after receiving the Holy Spirit. Please reference Galatians 2:11-13 where Paul confronts Peter and Barnabas for their hypocrisy in the face of the circumcision party. They apparently sinned.
Also be aware that it is sinful to make slanderous remarks about Catholics, the Catholic Church, or its leadership. Catholics do not blindly follow the Church. This kind of remark is totally unsubstantiated and cannot be justified in any way shape or form. At best, it is an uncharitable slam on your part.
I hope some of this helps.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
Robert,
All I can do is pray for you, that you may discern more clearly Jesus’ communique’s with you, for now, you are definitely not on the correct path.
I will pray that He reveal the Truth to you - that He will never abandon His Bride or speak against Her. I suspect He’s already sharing that with you but that your own free will is obstructing the Truth.
It makes no sense whatsoever, that we would have such specific language in scripture showing precisely how Jesus began his ministry by selecting 12 men to follow Him…to have spent his ministry teaching to them, then after His resurrection, reinforcing His previous teachings **to those same chose apostles **(except Judas, he was replaced) in light of what had transpired, and then how He sent the Holy Spirit to desend upon THEM, not all believers, mind you, but a specifically selected few - hand picked by Jesus Himself, moving **them **to spread the Good News. And before that, specifically selecting Peter for a particular charge of duty above and beyond that of the other 12 (we say it’s the papacy, you may deny that, but you cannot deny He gave Peter something He did not give to the other 11, let alone every believer).
Jesus did not distribute gifts, responsibilities equally. He just didn’t.
Your free will and intellect have led you to believe the Church is corrupt and therefore no longer worthy of Christ’s protection, but you are in no position to make such a claim. Not to forget that you’re saying you are because Jesus told you this, proves what you are receiving is not from Jesus. I don’t know who’s talking to you, but it is not Him.
Peace be with you and may the Holy Spirit truly descend upon you so that you may see His True Light soon.
YYM
All I can do is pray for you, that you may discern more clearly Jesus’ communique’s with you, for now, you are definitely not on the correct path.
I will pray that He reveal the Truth to you - that He will never abandon His Bride or speak against Her. I suspect He’s already sharing that with you but that your own free will is obstructing the Truth.
It makes no sense whatsoever, that we would have such specific language in scripture showing precisely how Jesus began his ministry by selecting 12 men to follow Him…to have spent his ministry teaching to them, then after His resurrection, reinforcing His previous teachings **to those same chose apostles **(except Judas, he was replaced) in light of what had transpired, and then how He sent the Holy Spirit to desend upon THEM, not all believers, mind you, but a specifically selected few - hand picked by Jesus Himself, moving **them **to spread the Good News. And before that, specifically selecting Peter for a particular charge of duty above and beyond that of the other 12 (we say it’s the papacy, you may deny that, but you cannot deny He gave Peter something He did not give to the other 11, let alone every believer).
Jesus did not distribute gifts, responsibilities equally. He just didn’t.
Your free will and intellect have led you to believe the Church is corrupt and therefore no longer worthy of Christ’s protection, but you are in no position to make such a claim. Not to forget that you’re saying you are because Jesus told you this, proves what you are receiving is not from Jesus. I don’t know who’s talking to you, but it is not Him.
Peace be with you and may the Holy Spirit truly descend upon you so that you may see His True Light soon.
YYM
R
reen12
Guest
quote: Todd Easton
It may or may not reflect theological reality.
The RCC has it right on the Mass, as sacrifice.
Some other denominations have it right on
blessed assurance [not OSAS].
This is what I hold.
These are also assertions, based on faith.
So, I nod pleasantly to Catholics, who insist on
infallibility and on the constructs of scholastic theologians…
And I nod pleasantly to Evangelicals, who insist
on no other “mediator”…
…the priest offers the Sacrifice, and acts, in that sole
capacity, as a mediator. We attend Mass, which is
why we are called a “priestly people.”]
It’s not a question of:
Our faith is true.
No, our faith is true.
I think you’re both right, and self-corrective.
Best,
reen12
That is an assertion, and a matter of faith.
It may or may not reflect theological reality.
The RCC has it right on the Mass, as sacrifice.
Some other denominations have it right on
blessed assurance [not OSAS].
This is what I hold.
These are also assertions, based on faith.
So, I nod pleasantly to Catholics, who insist on
infallibility and on the constructs of scholastic theologians…
And I nod pleasantly to Evangelicals, who insist
on no other “mediator”…
…the priest offers the Sacrifice, and acts, in that sole
capacity, as a mediator. We attend Mass, which is
why we are called a “priestly people.”]
It’s not a question of:
Our faith is true.
No, our faith is true.
I think you’re both right, and self-corrective.
Best,
reen12
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
I was not aware the Mass was the sacrifice.
Isn’t The Sacrifice the Eucharist?
The Mass leading up to and stemming from that main event?
As for being priestly people, that certainly entitles us to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ after THE priest changes the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, but it doesn’t make it possible for us to then go about changing bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ later.
What you’ve described here sounds like a reenactment of the last supper rather than a reliving of that event. When Christ told the apostles to do this in memory of me (while handing bread and wine out to those at the table to eat and drink) He was teaching them how to keep His Presence on this earth for all of us until He returns. Of course, they didn’t know that at the time…the Truth of His instructions that evening didn’t become apparent until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended upon them revealing the Full Truth of all that Jesus had taught to them. It was after Pentecost that we read about various meetings where bread was broken among the people.
I don’t understand why anyone would want to settle for a memory of a time when Christ was here and when the apostles were able to eat his flesh and drink his blood, when they can have Christ present here and now and can eat and drink of His flesh and blood themselves.
Anyway, I didn’t mean to hijack the thread, but it was the first time I’d ever seen the mass described as a sacrifice…sorry.
- Status