What makes a God who allows eternal suffering worthy of my worship?

[Stephen_Korsman]

wcknight:

Some folks who have seen it, (as in the kids at Fatima, and a few others) will tell you it’s no tall tale. Hell is there, just as Heaven is there, and God exists.

Such visions usually describe hell in terms of fire and brimstone and demons torturing those in hell.

Sr Faustina’s description (elsewhere in this thread) is less like that … but still speaks of smells and the like.

Is this purely for the purpose of explaining the nature of hell to people with a limited experience with the spirit world?

God bless,
Stephen

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

jimmy:

Hell is what is not heaven. If we do not go to heaven then we will be in hell. Hell is not necisarilly a specific place, it is just not heaven. It is the lack of the knowledge of God or the vision of God, which is what makes it hell.

If those who go to hell go there because it’s their choice, because, having seen God, they can’t stand to be in his presence, then surely that shows that what is in one’s heart is more important than all the things we can see from the outside.

If a desperately unhappy, pentagram-tattooed, drug-addicted mother prostituting herself so she can feed her children, dies one night from a drug overdose, and finds herself in front of God, and says, “Wow! This is wonderful! There is a God! There is something better than the misery down there!” … will God turn her away?

If a parish priest, after years enjoying the power of controlling his little flock, manipulating them, feeding off them, using them to make him climb to the top of whatever ladder he aspires to, dies, and looks at God and thinks, " this is not what I want - give me back my POWER!" … will he go to heaven?

Note: this is not a promotion of prostitution or a criticism of the clergy

God bless,
Stephen

 

[Infallible]

Hey!

Well, we have to look at the big picture. First of all, we as humans do not have the big picture, only He does. So why does he allow such sufferings you ask??? Well, so that a greater good will come out of it. Just look at the cross. It was a horrible thing, but when it was all done, the gates of heaven were opened and you and I have a chance to be with God! We need to try to think supernatural not earthly. God loves us all and wants us to be happy. By the way, there is a God, don’t be silly…

God Bless!

 

[buffalo]

Infallible:

Hey!

Well, we have to look at the big picture. First of all, we as humans do not have the big picture, only He does. So why does he allow such sufferings you ask??? Well, so that a greater good will come out of it. Just look at the cross. It was a horrible thing, but when it was all done, the gates of heaven were opened and you and I have a chance to be with God! We need to try to think supernatural not earthly. God loves us all and wants us to be happy. By the way, there is a God, don’t be silly…

God Bless!

Why do we automatically think suffering is bad? Maybe suffering in God’s eyes is necessary and leads us to purity. Since our time here is a trial, why should we expect an easy go of it?

 

[caroljm36]

Well at least you acknowledge His existence or you could not have asked the question. But you reject Him because of the suffering the world. That’s pretty common. Many people who claim to be nonbelievers are in fact angry with God.

So God is so much greater than you or that He merits respect on that basis alone, no? God is a much more worthy object of your worship than some discredited materialistic philosphy, or Science, which can offer NO spiritual guidance, or some mundane earthly thing like your Harley, your HDTV, your favorite band, or yourself.

 

[wcknight]

Stephen Korsman:

Such visions usually describe hell in terms of fire and brimstone and demons torturing those in hell.

Sr Faustina’s description (elsewhere in this thread) is less like that … but still speaks of smells and the like.

Is this purely for the purpose of explaining the nature of hell to people with a limited experience with the spirit world?

God bless,
Stephen

It’s merely to state that Hell exists (for those who foolishly think it does not or is not possible for anyone to be there).

WC

 

[Philthy]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear Phil,

I don’t believe you have actually found a logical flaw in Jax’s reasoning. As I understood it, Jaxboy’s assertions were made in order to explain his/her personal opinion, the construction of which may have been slightly clumsy but not subject to the same scrutiny as if it were presented as an actual proof.

Overall, you have not proven any fallacy in the original statements, but just showed that they constitute a personal opinion rather than a proof which I didn’t think needed to be proven.

I admit I had a little fun, but I do think it’s important to understand that when you base a conclusion on an opinion all you have done is stated more opinion.

AlanFromWichita:

What I am more concerned with is how you would address the issue from your own heart as opposed to through an attempt at a logical exercise.

Did you read my first post? It had some feelings in it.

AlanFromWichita:

What makes a God who allows eternal suffering worthy of our worship? The issue here is that Jax has found a collision between his/her sense of conscience and the apparent behavior of this alleged “supreme being” which would be considered cruel under our own “God-given” system of ethics as we humans perceive them.

Agreed. And part of that “collision” problem is that his opinion matters a lot to him, but has no bearing on reality - he needs to come to grips with that fact.

AlanFromWichita:

Under what conditions might humans worship a supreme being? One, if they think the being is worthy of worshipping. Two is that they might become convinced that it is helpful to our own souls to worship, regardless of whether of not God “deserves” it. Three is that we must because we are commanded to – based on fear of punishment, which seems to me to be the least noble of reasons but certainly the one that seems to be most pervasive.

It also seems to me that anyone who worships God because of fear of punishment has gained nothing because it is phony, ill-motivated worship. Kind of like a person dancing when the bad guy shoots a gun toward his feet is not a dance of worship of the bad guy but a survival response.

I agree with you that we should not perpetually fear God and let that be the dominant characteristic of our relationship with Him. However, fear is an excellent reality that we can thank God for. I happen to believe that we lowly humans can not truly appreciate the Crucifixion without it. Have you not read Proverbs? Prov. 1:7 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.” Fear is the starting point for motivation and ultimately a reference point for appreciation of what we have been saved from.

AlanFromWichita:

That really speaks to another even slightly larger issue, which is the double bind that religion typically puts us in. We are required and commanded, under pain of eternal punishment, to do something that is only meaningful if it is done out of free will.

Alan

I like your articulation here. Your hidden implication is that something that is “required and commanded” can’t simultaneously be freely desired. If you could demonstrate that that is actually the case you would be in a position to criticize God’s plan. But there is no reason why they are mutually exclusive: it simply goes against our nature, but who says our nature leads us to truth and happiness? My parents required and commanded things of me as a child under threat of punishment all the time. As I grew older and wiser I came to freely choose those behaviors I would have resisted as a child because I understood better with the benefit of experience. We don’t see clearly now, only “dimly”, but we will eventually see clearly. God is parenting us because we are his children.

Phil