What makes taxation NOT theft?

[itsjustme]

Do you not believe that good, moral politicians can be of benefit to makind?

Good, moral politician…isn’t that an oxymoron?

 

[Aquinas11]

You like to irritate people by saying politicians suck? Oxymoron

 

[Gab123]

As a member of society you have to contribute to the infrastructure that runs the everyday operations of a society, and that means paying for certain services which benefit all. Though taxation can turn into an abuse of power

 

[Wesrock]

We live in a society.

(That’s a meme saying now but I couldn’t help it.) Another platitude: No man’s an island.

Modern culture has indoctrinated us with individualism, but to an extreme that is rather counter to how the Church views one human’s relation to others.

If you’re so convinced taxation is theft, I don’t know if any argument is going to convince you, but even St. Paul encouraged paying taxes to Rome, the Rome who persecuted Christians and held him under house arrest, as a legitimate authority. You didn’t sign a social contract, you were born into it, and yet it’s still something you are part of and have received. We are all heirs to what was before and what was around us. If you want it differently than you’re basically proposing we drop newborns off in the woods to fend for themselves. It’s just the nature of being human.

 

[itsjustme]

We live in a society.

But revolutions are fought because one group of people doesn’t agree with the social contract imposed on them by another group of people. Does the fact that they’re going against the prevailing social contract automatically make them illegitimate? Or is it simply a matter of might makes right?

 

[Aquinas11]

If you want it differently than you’re basically proposing we drop newborns off in the woods

Excellent post until derailing into anyone who disagrees wants to leave babies in woods

 

[Pai_Nosso]

To the TheDefaultMan.
Without citizens paying tax how would you propose our governments fund all the services and infrastructure that you use?

 

[nfinke]

It is essentially theft. People will try and make arguments to justify it, and it’s ultimately unavoidable if you want to live in society, but yes, it is still theft. But thats the world we live in.

 

[farronwolf]

Could you please send me a message with your address so I can come visit you and get some of what you think is yours.

When the property is in my possession then you might want to use gov. resources to try to get it back. Like law enforcement, the court system, you know things that taxes pay for.

Without a gov. and tax base to support the gov., there are no rules, therefor anything goes.

You don’t have to pay taxes. You are free to find a piece of land that is outside any gov. jurisdiction and set up your own government or no government if you choose.

Looking forward to receiving the message with your address.

 

[TK421]

The 10 Commandments were given to a society with laws and courts.

I come to your house with 50 buddies and take your goats. You tell me they belong to you because the Commandments say so. I laugh and punch you in the nose and ride off with your goats.

There is no operable legal system.

What do you do?

 

[tafan2]

Wrong. Not unless you can show that the tax is objectively unjust. The Church’s teaching is crystal clear, from the CCC:

2401 The seventh commandment forbids unjustly taking or keeping the goods of one’s neighbor and wronging him in any way with respect to his goods.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

If you want it differently than you’re basically proposing we drop newborns off in the woods

Excellent post until derailing into anyone who disagrees wants to leave babies in woods

Thanks, and I’ll agree that last was a bit much. I’ll just say I was being hyperbolic.

I definitely didn’t mean they want babies to die in the woods. We just can’t choose some things, we inherit relationships, like parents, and siblings, and extended family, and yes also even the society and culture (including government). That’s just how being brought into the world as a human being works.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Calling taxation “theft” is just an attempt to take some of the moral illegitimacy that comes with the word “theft” and apply it to “taxation.” In fact there is no inherent moral illegitimacy with taxation. In specific instances taxation can be illegitimate, when conducted by an illegitimate government. But in general, taxation is not illegitimate. And you cannot talk about theft without talking about illegitimacy because the concept of illegitimacy is part of the definition of the word “theft”.

The other approach used in this thread has been to redefine “theft” to mean the taking of personal property by force. This is not the common definition of theft. It is certainly not the definition used in Catholic morality. But if one wants to define the word “theft” in that fashion, then sure, taxation is theft. But then that person would fail in the attempt to impart some sense of illegitimacy onto taxation because the redefined word “theft” has been severed from its connotation of illegitimacy.

The logical error to watch out for in this debate is when someone is inconsistent in their definition of the word “theft”, at times divorcing it from the sense of illegitimacy and at other times trying to apply that sense to taxation.

 

[Bernoulli]

I come to your house with 50 buddies and take your goats. You tell me they belong to you because the Commandments say so. I laugh and punch you in the nose and ride off with your goats.

What do you do if the government sends a militia that does this?

 

[Crocus]

We elect people from among us to serve us by getting stuff done for us. If they don’t levy taxes, how they gonna pay for stuff? The alternative is everyone lives alone on their own individual island and does everything for self.

 

[Aquinas11]

Without citizens paying tax how would you propose our governments fund all the services and infrastructure that you use?

Well right now Government does not fund all the services and infrastructure with tax, only about 60%, I believe we borrow the other 40% and its growing every year.

Which brings up another theft - all of that borrowing is theft from the unborn who will have to pay it back. So you have 2 thefts going on.

(1) Theft from living who must pay the tax
(2) Theft from the unborn for the borrowing , who have to pay it back yet have no say

Solution is a voluntary tax , with no borrowing, that is used to fund social utilities like roads, courts, police, etc. Just like at Mass when Priest says we need a new School, please put more in basket if you can. People put in more because they want to see the new school built. Then the next week the Priest says “we’ve collected X so far, we need Y, if we don’t reach Y we can’t build the school” then people step up. There is no gun being put to peoples heads when the basket is going around.

I understand that generally taxation is just a practical reality and I pay tax, but I’m answering the question on a theoretical/philosophical level, is it theft.

 

[Aquinas11]

Could you please send me a message with your address so I can come visit you and get some of what you think is yours.

I’m not sure an armed burglary threat is an effective way to sway minds on this.

 

[Fauken]

In my opinion the lowest form of human life is a politician.

So what do you think of St. Thomas Moore?

 

[Crocus]

I have always been a proponent of the fair tax system. No federal income tax but a small national sales tax. I believe the government would raise more funds to pay for necessities and be less of a burden on individuals

That is an interesting proposal. Do you see support from people and or politicians to transition to that model?

 

[Crocus]

What do you do if the government sends a militia that does this?

I’m Canadian. Sorry.
Sounds like the kind of concern that overthrew the reach of George III. Don’t have confidence in your elected representatives?