What makes taxation NOT theft?

[Pai_Nosso]

Well right now Government does not fund all the services and infrastructure with tax, only about 60%, I believe we borrow the other 40% and its growing every year.

Which brings up another theft - all of that borrowing is theft from the unborn who will have to pay it back . So you have 2 thefts going on.

(1) Theft from living who must pay the tax
(2) Theft from the unborn for the borrowing , who have to pay it back yet have no say

Solution is a voluntary tax , with no borrowing , that is used to fund social utilities like roads, courts, police, etc. Just like at Mass when Priest says we need a new School, please put more in basket if you can. People put in more because they want to see the new school built. Then the next week the Priest says “we’ve collected X so far, we need Y, if we don’t reach Y we can’t build the school” then people step up. There is no gun being put to peoples heads when the basket is going around.

I understand that generally taxation is just a practical reality and I pay tax, but I’m answering the question on a theoretical/philosophical level, is it theft.

My question was to the op as I don’t believe he has any knowledge of the economics in society. I was hoping to make him understand that the services and infrastructure provided actually cost money to build, run and maintain.

Your 60-40% theory might apply where you live which is probably USA because they spend most of it on the army. But most countries don’t borrow like the USA does. Where I live 100% of our tax goes to services and infrastructure.

Your solution is absurd if you actually think about it. If the USA could only gather 60% of the required budget then how much do you think they will gather if people only volunteered to pay tax? They would get far less revenue that way which would lead to greater borrowing or a break down in services and infrastructure.

If a person wishes not to pay tax then perhaps they can be accommodated. They won’t be allowed to use the roads, public transport, no phone line, no internet, no rubbish collection, no police, no fire brigade, no ambulance, no school, no electricity or gas. In fact if that person receives the benefit of any government service and/or infrastructure then he/she will be deemed to be stealing and will get charged for theft.

Is there a society without tax? Where? In theory and practice there cannot be a society without tax. The problem is that humans take advantage of tax which leads to corruption

 

[Bernoulli]

Don’t have confidence in your elected representatives?

How do you know if my country has elected representatives? In any case, here we are speaking about the theory, not the conditions of any particular country.

 

[Crocus]

Oh. That’s different then. Hoping that such a country with no elected representatives, then at least is ruled by a benevolent monarch, who acts in the best interests of his/her subjects. According to the model of Christ the King.

 

[bassmansteiny]

The only politician that I saw/know of that endorse the idea was Gov. Huckabee, when he ran for president. There could be more, but I don’t remember. It will never happen though, too much bureaucracy in the way for that to happen.

 

[bassmansteiny]

A national sales tax has been proposed years back. A system called “fair tax”. No federal income tax, but a sales tax placed on all new goods purchased. I like this idea.

The beauty of it is, there are more people paying which raises revenue, but lowers the burden on the individual citizen because they are not paying a national income tax. When an item is purchased brand new, you pay a tax. Once that tax has been paid, say a new car, and it is sold used, there is no tax to be paid on it. So if you live on a tight income you virtually pay little in taxes if you buy gently used items. Visitors from other countries are also paying the sales tax.

Gov Huckabee was a supporter of this idea when he was running for president, unfortunately, there is hardly any chance of this ever coming to be, because of bureaucracy

 

[mythbuster1]

Some governments are able to derive all the revenue they need from the commons, but otherwise, you are correct: taxes are the wages owed to the civil magistrates for their work on behalf of the common good.

 

[bassmansteiny]

Haha, I see we agree with the fair tax

 

[Aquinas11]

probably USA because they spend most of it on the army.

No they spend most of it on social programs (Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment, etc)

Where I live 100% of our tax goes to services and infrastructure.

No its not what % go to services/infrastructure, its that an excess amount is being borrowed and stolen from unborn.

If the USA could only gather 60% of the required budget then how much do you think they will gather if people only volunteered to pay tax? They would get far less revenue

No, humans never do things better when they’re forced to do it. If don’t believe me , demand that someone do something for you and see what happens v. asking them nicely. I would not put more in the basket on Sunday if I was threatened with jail. I would put more in the basket on Sunday if I was choosing to, since it would give me more joy.

If a person wishes not to pay tax then perhaps they can be accommodated. They won’t be allowed to use the roads, public transport, no phone line

and who is going to pay the tax for the cost of enforcing that? The people voluntarily paying tax are now paying more tax. Instead, the free society can self regulate it. The free society (which includes people who voluntarily pay and people who don’t) can work it out. The reason there is such backlash against this idea of letting people freely work things out is that in recent times children aren’t permitted to freely work things out, i.e. play on streets, work things out, form their own teams and play without a referee, everything was very structured with a school, etc. So people now insist everything must be structured. When I was kid we worked things out , were able to negotiate little things like who is on what team, was that ball in our out, was that a foul, etc. But all of that is now forbidden. The State has now stepped in and must regulate everything, right down to what you say, where you go and how much water is in your toilet tank.

Is there a society without tax? Where?

Never suggested no tax, see above

 

[OddBird]

The problem with the social contract theory is that governments aren’t really just based on consent. I mean, if I leave this “social contract” then I’ll be evicted out of my own home. How in any way is that a form of “consent” if they’re going to take my property away from me?

I am not sure I understand what you mean.

Governments, in democratic systems, are elected : this is consent.
If you live in a non-democratic country, and choose not to move out, you consent. This is called implied consent.

If you use roads and public infrastructures, send your kids to school, put out your garbage to be collected by community services, are happy to have firemen and policemen available in times of troubles, then you implicitly consent to the contract.

A contract works as long as the two parties fulfill their duties. If you stop fulfilling yours, then you retract your consent and the contract is broken. It also puts an end to the other party’s obligations to you.

 

[Crocus]

unfortunately, there is hardly any chance of this ever coming to be, because of bureaucracy

Rather than bureaucracy, isn’t it actually the tendency of politicians to assert power by tearing down efforts of previous administrations (whatever it might have been) rather than build upon?

If supported, can be achieved gradually, increasing value added taxes while decreasing income taxes, until reaching equilibrium to pay for needed services.

 

[PetraG]

Whoa, I never signed this contract. And why should I leave because you presume that your contrived social contract gives you authority over everyone else?

You never signed the contract that allows the government to print money, either.

I don’t see what the confusion is, here. Our Lord was asked the exact question about whether it was even lawful to pay taxes to an occupying government, and what did He say?

“Repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.” Mark 12:17

St Paul also said that it is God who gives secular governments their authority:

Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. Rom 13:1-7

Pay your taxes and obey the law and respect the offices of those who have been given authority.
I don’t know what you’re complaining about, but be very sure that our secular government is not worse than the ones that Our Lord and St. Paul had to deal with.

And if your answer to that is God, then how can we recognize governments that God deems legitimate?

You don’t think the fact that the Vatican sends ambassadors is a reasonably good sign? What do you want, exactly?

I’m not sure if you’re Catholic but it’s a big part of Catholic morals that we recognize the existence of property rights.

I mean the 10 commandments aluded to it with the 7th and 10th commandments.

It is also a teaching of the Church and a teaching of Thomas Aquinas that property rights are legitimate.

The Church has never taught people not to pay their taxes.

 

[Crocus]

you are correct: taxes are the wages owed to the civil magistrates for their work on behalf of the common good.

I didn’t say taxes are the wages owed, however I agree those wages are part (relatively small) of the cost of the many valuable services required for the common good.

 

[Aquinas11]

You never signed the contract that allows the government to print money, either

Government doesn’t print money

“ Repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God. ” Mark 12:17

No its “Render” to Caesar, see Douay-Rheims version. “Render” is key since Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus and “render” was vague enough for them to think he meant “repay” even thought he didn’t, since the money doesn’t belong to Caesar.

 

[PetraG]

Government doesn’t print money

I’ve been to the US Mint. They absolutely do.

No its “ Render ” to Caesar, see Douay-Rheims version. “Render” is key since Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus and “render” was vague enough for them to think he meant “repay” even thought he didn’t, since the money doesn’t belong to Caesar.

Niggling about the translation does not change the consistent Church teaching that we have a duty to pay our taxes. The idea that taxes are theft is an invention, and a pretty weak one.

 

[TULIPed]

that would differenciate it from, say, a group of bandits)?

Bandits wear masks and say things like “stick ‘em up” and “give me your wallet”. (Sometimes they show up on the road between Jericho and Jerusalem apparently as well.)

Tax collectors sit in booths and are named Levi and Zaccheus and are often short and write Gospels.

 

[Aquinas11]

I’ve been to the US Mint. They absolutely do.

Federal reserve prints money

does not change the consistent Church teaching that we have a duty to pay our taxes.

Under certain circumstances, we are obligated not to
CCC [2242] The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. **“Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."48 "We must obey God rather than men”:**49

 

[PetraG]

Federal reserve prints money

The Federal Reserve is an independent agency and the US Mint is a bureau of the Federal government. Just because the Fed was created to be out of the direct control of the executive branch or the direct interference by Congress does not mean it is not a governmental agency. The employees at the US Mint are federal employees who are offered the same benefits (such as FERS and TSP) that other federal employees get. It is undeniably an arm of the US government that prints and mints our money.

 

[Aquinas11]

does not mean it is not a governmental agency

“print money” was the phrase used

Federal Reserve prints money, not Mint, and Fed Reserve is a quasi-private/quasi-public entity, not the Government

 

[PetraG]

Under certain circumstances, we are obligated not to
CCC [2242] The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel . Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. **“ Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."48 "We must obey God rather than men ”:**49

No one in the Magesterium is teaching that tax evasion is the act of an upright conscience. Besides, the OP has made no objection that taxes should not be paid because they go to some ends that are immoral (which Heaven knows, the Romans were certainly doing, as they were using tax money to crucify thousands of Jews). The OP is implying that taxes are inherently a form of theft.

No, they aren’t. That is a made-up excuse and not supported by any of the consistent teachings from our deposit of Faith.

 

[Aquinas11]

St Paul also said that it is God who gives secular governments their authority:

Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves . For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience

Perfect argument for the Death Penalty.