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paul_c
Guest
Through yoru good works that show you are actually following christ
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CaptCrunch73
Guest
Just to add on to paul c’s point, Matthew 7 clearly states that ACTION in addition to FAITH is required. (Matt 7:12, Matt 7:26)
How will you know people? By their fruit (Matt 7:16)
Now we can play scripture pong and you can list scripture verses that states faith is all that’s needed, and most, if not all of the people on this board will agree that FAITH is requried. The difference is we’ll accept that faith is required (because scripture says so) BUT we also realize that WORKS are also required (because scripture says) so.
Catholics don’t use the it’s either this verse or that verse to explain doctrine, They use the both this verse AND that verse.
[bibledrb]Matt. 7:16[/bibledrb]
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Julia_Mae
Guest
It’s not only held that way in Tradition, it’s what Paul specifically says. I already posted the part from Romans 2 (which** fpesce** ignores) where Paul is being crystal clear:
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
That’s one verse, there were more. In Romans, which is one well-organized lesson in becoming a church and in the Gospel, Paul sometimes speaks separately to the Jews or the gentiles in the Christian community at Rome to which he is writing. We need no interpretation, he makes this perfectly clear himself.
**
Romans 3:19-20**
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the** works of the law**; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Here for the first time, Paul uses the word works and we can see the difference between the doing good above and what he means by “works”. The KJV translated this “deeds of the law.” Paul, when he speaks of “works” is speaking to the Jews (“those who are under the law”) about their performance of things the law requires. IOW, they are not righteous in God’s eyes because they don’t eat shellfish. He will get into this more, and he will use the same Greek word: *ergon/] So, when you see “works” later on in the KJV, it is the same word the KJV reader sees as “deeds”
It is clear from context that Paul is speaking to Jews who need to understand their freedom from the “law” in terms of ceremonial requirements when he speaks of ergon (works) later in the letter.*
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Not only are there two different forms of the words for “rock” but there can be different meanings given to other words in the passage and using those alternate definitions of the Greek, it can mean something entirely different from either of the meanings ascribed here.
Such is the purpose of Tradition. Who do you think has a better idea of what Jesus was saying? You and I in 2011 or the early Christians within a couple generations who had the teachings of Jesus passed down from apostle to disciple?
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Julia_Mae
Guest
No. You seem to be lacking catechesis. Perhaps it would be good to go here, CCC, put “salvation” in the search box and read what comes up.
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Philthy
Guest
I can tell you are threatened by what I have said. I offer no apologies - just apologetics! I’d be happy to discuss any of what I’ve said. What specifically would you like to discuss? That being saved (initial salvation) doesn’t guarantee you go to Heaven? Many letters in the NT deals with this issue, lets review 1 Cor 6:7-10.
1cor6:7-8:
Paul is addressing a situation in the corinthian church. These comments are directed to saved believers who “call upon the name of our Lord Jesus”, who had themselves “sanctified” and “washed”: they are saved. Paul is unhappy with their lawsuits against one another (ie brothers) and their lying and cheating to gain for themselves at their brothers expense. He exhorts them to follow Christ’s example (ie accept injustice as God’s will) instead, but they don’t. He then tells them exactly what the consequence of such actions is:
The consequence is loss of their inheritance in the KOG (ie Heaven). They will not inherit the Kingdom of God. To summarize:
They are “saved”
They are inflicting injustice, which means they are unjust
Paul says the unjust will not inherit the Kingdom of God
Conclusion: Saved believers are at risk of not inheriting the Kingdom of God.
Paul frequently speaks of Heaven and inheriting the KOG this way - faith never enters the discussion! It is remarkably different when he is discussing being “saved” (ie initial salvation) If you fail to recognize the difference between initial, ongoing and final salvation you will completely misinterpret Paul. I suspect that is already an issue…
I fully expect to endure considerable spin in your attempt to “explain” what Paul was saying here - how it has nothing to do with their salvation - I’ve heard it many times before. If you think you have already addressed this in a prior post, let me know the number and I’ll check it out.
Blessings
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Philthy
Guest
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Philthy
Guest
Faith isn’t proven, it is lived. Either you live it or you don’t. this is sort of a distraction from the topic IMHO.
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QuickCat
Guest
A. T. Robertson’s Word Pictures
1 John 5:13
I have written (egrapsa). Not epistolary aorist, but refers to verses 1Jo 5:1-12 of this Epistle as in 1Jo 2:26 to the preceding verses. That ye may know (hina eidête). Purpose clause with hina and the second perfect active subjunctive of oida, to know with settled intuitive knowledge. He wishes them to have eternal life in Christ (Joh 20:31) and to know that they have it, but not with flippant superficiality (1Jo 2:3). Unto you that believe on (tois pisteuousin eis). Dative of the articular present active participle of pisteuô and eis as in verse 1Jo 5:10. For this use of onoma (name) with pisteuô see 1Jo 3:23; Joh 2:23.
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
1 John, chapter 4 tells us that if we love God, we must love our brother also.
1 John 5:3 - *For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments *. . .
We know we have eternal life as long as we keep his commandments! How can we be sure that we will keep his commandments every moment without fail until we die? We can’t. We are susceptible to sin. Eternal life may lost. We must repent or it is lost forever.
Read the Bible holistically. Proof-texting – and you’re giving us an example of it here – always results in faulty interpretation.
The NT consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. She is the only one who can tell us what the writings mean.
John did not teach believer’s security.
Jim Dandy
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davidmlamb
Guest
Leadee, I was an Evangelical for 18 years. I have been a Catholic now for 12 years. As an experienced evangelical pastor who preached and taught the bible for 12 years I can say that their are not minor theological differences there are major theological difference. Just to name one "once saved always saved (OSAS) verses you can lose your salvation are diametrically opposed to one another. To make matters worse they both hold to the Protestant dogma of sola fide which conflicts with the pentecostal positions of losing your salvation while OSAS is diametrically opposed to the scriptures coming from a truncated and out of context teaching of Saint Paul’s epistles. Furthermore, we don’t persecute Protestants, we consider them our “seperated” brothers and sisters. Not seperated from God but from the Church. We are united by our baptism.
You evangelicals inspired me to study and meditate on scripture. You did a lot for my spiritual growth. But you are very problematic in your theology. You only understand that Christ died for your sins but you do not grasp that the death and resurrection of Christ established a new covenant that replaced the Mosaic covenant. A covenant is a contract between man and God. We enter that covenant by virtue of baptism and it is our faith that moves us to the sacrament of baptism. Sacrament comes from the word “SACRAFICE.” It is the efficasy of receiving the blood of Christ for the remission of sins.
We are neither saved or lost until the end of our lives. After baptism and during the course of our life we are either in a state of grace or a state of mortal sin. In other words, we are either right with God or not right with God. If we die in a state of grace we are saved. If we die in a state of mortal sin we are lost. Therefore we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). How do we do this? By denying ourselves, taking up our crosses and following Christ all the days of our life. We must be faithful to God. That is why we are not saved by faith alone but justified by works(Jam 2:14-26, Matt 25:14-46).
Finally allow me to point out that protestant dogma of sola fide uses Ephes. 2:8-9 as proof of doctrine but they leave out verse 10 which puts the entire passage in context and it reads like this:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So we are not saved by faith alone but by grace alone. What is grace? Grace comes from the Greek word “charis” and it means the power and influence of God on the heart and soul of a person ." It is grace that transforms us into new creations in Christ (2 Cor 5:17) because grace is the power of God that transforms us and enables us to do the good works God prepared for us to do. And we will be justified by those works. Faith without works is dead and cannot save us. So God just didn’t pardon our sins and then overlooks them as we continue to sin, he has given us the power to overcome sin and to become a new person empowered by God to do works of service.
Yet sola fide the pillar doctrine of all of Protestantism say’s the opposite, that we are saved by faith alone. Faith is not enough, faith produces grace and grace moves us to the light. And if walk in the light as Christ is the light then the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin and we are in a state of grace. But if we begin to walk in darkness we have abandoned Christ and no longer live by the truth. We must confess our sins and reject them. We must be faithful to God. We must die to self and the life that we live become the life of Christ. If we only have faith but are unfaithful then we find ourselves among those of Matt.7:21-23. They knew Christ, had faith in him, preached in his name, and even did miracals, but they did not repent of evil. They were unfaithful.
The Church is a big part of the covenant. The Church gave us the bible, the bible is a product of the Catholic Church and therefore in order for the bible to be infallible, it must be infallibly taught. Not even minor differences can exist. Therefore the Bible rests on the pillars of the Church and the Church rests on the pillars of Christ. The Church gives us the sacraments, the sacraments are the efficasy of the cross of Christ and are not limited to a magic sinners prayer that gives us an escape from hell for free card. You evangelicals have 3 things that links us together in an imperfect union. You have the sacrament of baptism. You have a type of sacrament of reconcilliation (sinners prayer) . You lack the true apostolic absolution of sins given to the Apostles as the scriptures teaches us in John 20. And you have the bible, the written Word of God. But you lack the totality of the Word of God and the correct theological understanding of scripture. although I know God speaks to us through scripture, it does not mean we always arrive at doctrinal truth. That is why we have the Church which speaks the wisdom of God to the powers and authorities (Ephesians 3:10) and is the pillar and foundation of truth(1 Tim3:15). You lack a pastor whom Christ personally appointed to properly feed his sheep the Word of God (John 21:15-18, Matthew 16:17-19). The Church fully equips us to live out our lives in faithfulness to God. I am not saying you won’t be saved. I am saying you need to discover not only Christ, but Christ Church, the pillar and foundation of truth.
David
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ConstantinePX
Guest
To paraphrase, the CC’s teaching is to receive sacraments, mainly,
- Be baptized. ASAP. If you are not, have someone do it this very instant. It doesn’t have to be a Priest, although it is preferred, but any person, laity or not, can perform a baptism, so long as it is invoked in the name of the Trinity.
- Repent. AKA Reconcile or Confess. When you sin, confess your sin. It is not required that you go to Confession every week. Infact, when you go to Mass, the Penitential Rite absolves you of minor sin (Sin that is not against the 10 commandments.) If you MORTALLY sin (Break the commandments or are frequently partaking in the 7 deadly sins) then it is highly advised to go to Confession as Penitential rites do not absolve people of this major sin.
- Believe! Believe in God and his word, this is expressed in the form of Confirmation, Holy Orders, and Marriage, as all three of these represent an affirmation of faith, but dont feel you have to be a priest or married to be a believer, there is always the single life which many of our Church fathers and saints lived (Just not the ‘single life’ as seen in modern pagan culture which is riddled with celebrations of sin)
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Leadee
Guest
There is no book of the bible that mentions it’s human author in it that I know of. We know who wrote them because of the scrolls we have based the bible on. Some of the OT books we don’t even know for sure who wrote them. Johm Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark. That’s why it’s called the Gospel “of” Mark.
I’m sorry, I’m not understanding what point you are trying to prove. Who wrote the book or who inspired the book? God divinely inspired the writers of the bible and here’s the verses: 2 Tim 3:16-17 - All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
2 Peter 1:21 says - For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
There are othe verses that talk about how we understand it which is through the Holy Spirit. And every believe has the Holy Spirit to guide and teach them. (1Cor 2:9-13, John 16:13, 1 John 2:20 & 27).
I don’t really want to debate whether the bible is the Word of God or not. You can decide for yourself. It is very clear to me that it is, I’m convinced that it is “Living”(Heb 4:12) as well. I came here to try to understand where the catholic church builds it’s theology of salvation on and I see now. Thank you.
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Leadee
Guest
Actually, I am not after that.
I want him to see something greater. The idea that he has to trust in the Apostles of Jesus. At the beginning, it was Peter, John etc. Then they instituted others with the same teaching authority like St. Paul. That has continued to this day. THIS is HISTORICAL fact.
If he wants to say that the Apostles now might be in error, then this applies to the entire set of Apostles even right after Jesus. In other words, there is no Christianity.
So either he accepts that Apostles, when deciding matters of teaching are infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit or not. Since he nor the early Christians were Christ’s apostles, they had to obey and give full assent to what the Apostles taught.
While the point of the Canon of Scripture is covered here, it also shows a fundamental logical error in the Protestant thinking.
With respect to Canon of Scripture, many believe that they can still just accept it as “Holy Spirit made sure the right Canon ended up in their hands”. But that becomes unreasonable because if they say no to the teaching authority of the Apostles, it is unreasonable to assume that “Holy Spirit must guide people to the truth” is TRUE. Such a proposition is merely a speculation.
That is what I want Leadee to realize.
God BlessI am putting my trust in God who inspired the writers and canonizers( if that’s what we’d call them) of His word and anyone else inbetween who brought us the scriptures. The only problem I have is putting my trust in those who have changed it because I don’t believe God can contradict Himself. Clearly you can’t see where I’m coming from so we can agree to disagree.
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Tomster
Guest
Well said David and thank you!
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ddarko
Guest
WHAT???
Ok Leadee, you are not making any sense.
I am ASKING YOU, what makes you so sure that the CANONIZERS or WRITERS were inspired by GOD?
How did you know WHO were inspired by God and who were NOT?
So Leadee, answer the question, IF you believe in the Apostles once, if their is possibility of error, then it undermines EVERYTHING they’ve said. Do you understand that?
You can’t just say “At this point in history, the church went astray”. Do you know why? Because the whole POINT of Christianity is that you believe the teaching of the Apostles.
It’s not about believing in a BOOK. You BELIEVE in the BOOK, because you FIRST believe that APOSTLES have the AUTHORITY to TEACH INFALLIBLY, and they have TAUGHT that it is the BOOK to BELIEVE.
What YOU have LEADEE is just ONE LOGICALLY CONSISTENT interpretation. IT IS just ONE OF INFINITELY many possible logically consistent interpretations of the BIBLE.
What you have somehow come to believe ERRONEOUSLY is that IF IT IS LOGICALLY CONSISTENT, IT MUST BE TRUE. That is IRRATIONAL. Logical consistency is NOT proof of it being TRUE.
YOU have a logically consistent interpretation. The CATHOLIC Church, the Apostles today, have IT’s own logically consistent interpretation. AND of course, your interpretation and the Catholic Church’s interpretation are not agreeing.
Then what you do, is you listen to the APOSTLES. Not to you GUT or your DREAM or your VISION. Because they are the Apostles and THEY have the AUTHORITY to TEACH.
NOT YOU!! Get the point?
Right now you are thinking you’ve got the TRUTH figured out because you have a logically consistent interpretation. THAT IS AN ERROR. Logical consistency does NOT say whether an interpretation is TRUE (it can only say whether an interpretation IS FALSE if it is internally inconsistent).
This all goes back to one thing Leadee. You haven’t done your homework in building a foundation through REASON.
God Bless
D
ddarko
Guest
It’s not only held that way in Tradition, it’s what Paul specifically says. I already posted the part from Romans 2 (which** fpesce** ignores) where Paul is being crystal clear:
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
That’s one verse, there were more. In Romans, which is one well-organized lesson in becoming a church and in the Gospel, Paul sometimes speaks separately to the Jews or the gentiles in the Christian community at Rome to which he is writing. We need no interpretation, he makes this perfectly clear himself.
**
Romans 3:19-20**
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the** works of the law**; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Here for the first time, Paul uses the word works and we can see the difference between the doing good above and what he means by “works”. The KJV translated this “deeds of the law.” Paul, when he speaks of “works” is speaking to the Jews (“those who are under the law”) about their performance of things the law requires. IOW, they are not righteous in God’s eyes because they don’t eat shellfish. He will get into this more, and he will use the same Greek word: *ergon/] So, when you see “works” later on in the KJV, it is the same word the KJV reader sees as “deeds”
It is clear from context that Paul is speaking to Jews who need to understand their freedom from the “law” in terms of ceremonial requirements when he speaks of ergon* (works) later in the letter.
I don’t see what we disagree on?
Aren’t we both saying St. Paul was talking about the OT laws like Circumcision, diet restrictions etc?
God Bless
T
Tomster
Guest
David,
If I may add to your fine response . . .
St. John describes the grace produced by justification as a new life, really communicated to the faithful (John 3:5; 6:52; 15:5), implying freedom from sin (8:34-36), and a divine peace that in Christ will overcome the world (14:27; 16:33). St. Paul calls our justification the resurrection of the soul (Col. 3:1), which makes us adopted sons of God, “heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ” (Rom. 8:16-17). He identifies it with our “regeneration and renovation” by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5), and, in his striking parallelism between the first and the second Adam, he shows that Christ imparts justice to our souls just as truly as Adam transmitted original sin (Rom. 5:19).
Luther’s teaching that faith alone justifies was condemned by the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, because it clearly contradicted the Sacred Scriptures. “Faith without works is dead,” says St. James (2:16). Faith with Luther meant man’s confidence that his sins had been forgiven by God for Christ’s sake, whereas Christ and His Apostles always taught that faith implied the acceptance of all God’s revelation on His word (Mark 1:15; Mark 16:16; Luke 18:8; Luke 24:25-28; John 11: 25-27; Rom. 3: 22-25; Rom. 9: 30-33; Eph. 3: 8-12; Heb. 11:6). Without faith justification is impossible; it is “the root of all justification, the beginning and the foundation of man’s salvation.” Other dispositions are required, for faith necessarily leads to action. We must not only believe, but we must hope, repent and love. “We are saved by hope” (Rom. 8:24). “Do penance and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38). 'If I have faith so as to move mountains and have not charity, it profits me nothing" (1 Corinthians 13:2).
If I may add to your fine response . . .
St. John describes the grace produced by justification as a new life, really communicated to the faithful (John 3:5; 6:52; 15:5), implying freedom from sin (8:34-36), and a divine peace that in Christ will overcome the world (14:27; 16:33). St. Paul calls our justification the resurrection of the soul (Col. 3:1), which makes us adopted sons of God, “heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ” (Rom. 8:16-17). He identifies it with our “regeneration and renovation” by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5), and, in his striking parallelism between the first and the second Adam, he shows that Christ imparts justice to our souls just as truly as Adam transmitted original sin (Rom. 5:19).
Luther’s teaching that faith alone justifies was condemned by the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, because it clearly contradicted the Sacred Scriptures. “Faith without works is dead,” says St. James (2:16). Faith with Luther meant man’s confidence that his sins had been forgiven by God for Christ’s sake, whereas Christ and His Apostles always taught that faith implied the acceptance of all God’s revelation on His word (Mark 1:15; Mark 16:16; Luke 18:8; Luke 24:25-28; John 11: 25-27; Rom. 3: 22-25; Rom. 9: 30-33; Eph. 3: 8-12; Heb. 11:6). Without faith justification is impossible; it is “the root of all justification, the beginning and the foundation of man’s salvation.” Other dispositions are required, for faith necessarily leads to action. We must not only believe, but we must hope, repent and love. “We are saved by hope” (Rom. 8:24). “Do penance and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38). 'If I have faith so as to move mountains and have not charity, it profits me nothing" (1 Corinthians 13:2).
T
Tomster
Guest
ddarko,WHAT???
Ok Leadee, you are not making any sense.
I am ASKING YOU, what makes you so sure that the CANONIZERS or WRITERS were inspired by GOD?
How did you know WHO were inspired by God and who were NOT?
So Leadee, answer the question, IF you believe in the Apostles once, if their is possibility of error, then it undermines EVERYTHING they’ve said. Do you understand that?
You can’t just say “At this point in history, the church went astray”. Do you know why? Because the whole POINT of Christianity is that you believe the teaching of the Apostles.
It’s not about believing in a BOOK. You BELIEVE in the BOOK, because you FIRST believe that APOSTLES have the AUTHORITY to TEACH INFALLIBLY, and they have TAUGHT that it is the BOOK to BELIEVE.
What YOU have LEADEE is just ONE LOGICALLY CONSISTENT interpretation. IT IS just ONE OF INFINITELY many possible logically consistent interpretations of the BIBLE.
What you have somehow come to believe ERRONEOUSLY is that IF IT IS LOGICALLY CONSISTENT, IT MUST BE TRUE. That is IRRATIONAL. Logical consistency is NOT proof of it being TRUE.
YOU have a logically consistent interpretation. The CATHOLIC Church, the Apostles today, have IT’s own logically consistent interpretation. AND of course, your interpretation and the Catholic Church’s interpretation are not agreeing.
Then what you do, is you listen to the APOSTLES. Not to you GUT or your DREAM or your VISION. Because they are the Apostles and THEY have the AUTHORITY to TEACH.
NOT YOU!! Get the point?
Right now you are thinking you’ve got the TRUTH figured out because you have a logically consistent interpretation. THAT IS AN ERROR. Logical consistency does NOT say whether an interpretation is TRUE (it can only say whether an interpretation IS FALSE if it is internally inconsistent).
This all goes back to one thing Leadee. You haven’t done your homework in building a foundation through REASON.
God Bless
You are really getting to core of the discussion.
No one ever rated reason so low as Luther, who believed original sin meant the utter corruption of human nature. He told his followers at Wittenburg that they must hate reason as their greatest foe. He frequently called reason “the devil’s whore”; “the arch-enemy of faith”; “a crazy witch,” on whom the heathen hung when they thought themselves cleverest. The incomprehensibility of the mysteries of faith, for the understanding of which reason alone does not suffice, Luther represents as an open contradiction to reason. To him reason and philosophy are necessarily opposed to God. Luther conceived a distrust of reason itself, not to be explained simply by his distrust of it, as the main prop of self righteousness. No one can despise reason with impunity, and Luther himself was punished by the darkening of his own views on faith.
How different the Catholic teaching, which holds, that although original sin weakened our natural faculties, it did not destroy man’s reason or free will. Reason is the most distinguished gift from heaven. The Catholic Church, the pillar and ground of truth, regards it as a sure guide of the unbeliever to faith. If man’s individual reason could not acquire certitude of the preambula of faith such as the existence of God, the immortality of the soul, the freedom of the will and the like, nor accept the motives of credibility, the Catholic Church, the pillar and ground of truth, would appeal in vain to an unbelieving world.
Faith is not oppossed to reason as Luther maintained, for it is, as St. Paul says, “a reasonable service” (Rom. 12:1).
T
Tomster
Guest
Thank you very much!
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