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PRmerger
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The same one that says that “everything you believe must be found in this bible.”
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Tomster
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Leadee,
I think you are operating under the heretical belief of imputed grace. This was the teaching of some of the 16th century reformers regarding the nature of habitual grace which results from Justification. Having taught that Justification was a mere judicial declaration of the non-imputability of sin, the Reformers then went on to say that the merits of Christ were positively imputed, so that the sinner was “cloaked” in the grace of Christ.
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Tomster
Guest
Indeed it is!
Interestingly enough, though, our esteemed adversaries will always give us what they “think” a particular chapter or verse means.
In other words, they will interpret the passages for us and then claim that the Bible can interpret itself.
I tried it once. I stared at a page of the Bible hoping that it would interpret itself. Alas, I realized I had to read the page and seek an authoritative interpreter. After all, God’s Word is infallible and His infallible Word needs an infallible interpreter.
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fpesce
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Oh, your good. Ha, Okay give me the scripture verse?The same one that says that “everything you believe must be found in this bible.”
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fpesce
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Because the word is insired word from God. If you don’t believe any part of it then it is not a reliable source for the word of God.Indeed it is!
If it is not a reliable source, then the works of the apostles are also not reliable.
If the works of the apostles are not reliable then neither is the church.
Thus Christianity would be false. God isn’t true and anything can be made up to suit mans purpose.
I think I’ll have to ask DDARKO if my reasoning is flawed.
But that is what I believe.
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Tomster
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St. Paul mentioned something, I believe, about running the race and winning the crown. You know, like its not over 'til its over.
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Leadee
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Tomster
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Speaking of the works of the Apostles see John 20:21-23. Certainly, then, you would have to believe that Jesus gave them the power to forgive sins if your line of reasoning is true.
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PRmerger
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I never give Bible verses unless someone provides me with the reason why I need to.
So, you provide me with the Scripture verse that says that I have to find everything we believe and profess in the bible, and then I will follow up with your request.
Book, chapter and verse, please which states that “Where is that in the bible” should be our foundational question. Thanks!
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fpesce
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St. Paul was spreading the GOOD NEWS. Isn’t that what we consider the bible? He was tasked by Jesus to feed His sheep.
Okay, give me your version.
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Tomster
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fpesce
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But you’re asking me to do something I asked you first. hehe So, therefore YOU must answer me first.
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Tomster
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fpesce
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Oh, man, too many posts. Now I’m answering some one on my side… oops. But still a good statement.
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fpesce
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Tomster
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St. Paul was spreading the Good News by writing AND oral tradition.
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Tomster
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I’m glad you now agree with us and believe that Jesus gave His Apostles the power to forgive sins in His Name.
Now, the next quetion is why do you suppose Jesus gave them that power?
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PRmerger
Guest
Leadee, do you know that it actually says, “If you** forgive men’s sins,** they are forgiven”.
How could that be “stretching it”?
Rather, it seems to be “stretching it” to declare that “If you forgive men’s sins” actually does NOT mean to “forgive men’s sins.”
[BIBLEDRB]John 20:23[/BIBLEDRB]
Well, yes. God forgives our sins. Not a man. The priest does not say, “I forgive you”
You are mistaken if you believe that our sins are forgiven based on the “purity” of the priest hearing our confession.
The Sacraments operate “ex opere operato” meaning: “by the very fact of the action’s being performed.”
Our Catechism declares: “the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God.”
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Cruxis117
Guest
Well, I would reckon that if the Holy Spirit is capable of inspiring several men across several centuries to write the many books which we call the Bible, and if we’re able to say that these words that these men wrote are really the words of God, then it’s not that far of a stretch to say that the Holy Spirit can work through men to do other great works. Right, only God can forgive sins, that’s why when a Priest forgives sin, it is not by his own power, but by the grace of God which has been given to him to perform this great work. And besides, the Scriptures are clear.
[BIBLEDRB]John 20:21-23[/BIBLEDRB]
When was the last time God breathed on a man? I can only give you one other reference:
[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 2:7[/BIBLEDRB]
Obviously this was a very significant event. They were changed significantly at this point.
Notice how in the Gospel of John, our Lord says this: "Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. This is a present action. I’m saying this to show that clearly, our Lord is not saying that the Apostles are just now able to say “You’re forgiven” when in reality it was a past action sort of thing. No, it’s at the moment when an Apostles or a sucessor of an Apostle says, “You are forgiven” that person is really forgiven of sin. That’s what Jesus gave to the Apostles. To accept the truth is not enough. Or else a person will find themselves in the parable of the seeds, where a person is the hard, stony rock which recieves the Word with joy, but finds that they wither because they have no moisture, they let temptation take them. A person must accept the truth and act upon it. They must repent. I agree, they were given the ministry of preaching the Gospel and making new believers through baptism.
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Leadee
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You shouldn’t believe my personal interpretation, or necessarily trust any one else’s for that matter. You should pray, study God’s word for yourself and ask the best teacher (Holy Spirit) to give you revelation. Knowledge is important but without revelation in the spirit it’s just rationality.How do you know your interpretation is right? If you are also of the position that the Holy Spirit guides you, how do you know that he does guide you?
Please refer to my post to fpesce here
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8181233&postcount=267
So the Catholic interpretation is to interpret things differently from what you do. Why must one give assent to your interpretation when it’s just your personal interpretation?
I too can quote Scripture verses like James 2:14-26. Then ask you how do you reconcile that with your faith. You will give me an interpretation which reconciles it with your faith.
So it all comes down to one question. Why should I believe your personal interpretation? The question cannot be answered from a theological Scripture verse since that would require interpretation to begin with.
God Bless
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