What must I do to be saved?

[fpesce]

Close, but no cigar. This is how I’d agree with you:

The Gospel is contained within Sacred Scripture (the Bible) and Sacred Tradition, and is the source of all saving truth. Notice what the paragraph you quote says:

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

Now, which Bible translation did the Apostles use? You’re saying that the Bible is the Gospel. Now, for some odd reason I can’t find that connection within the Scriptures, but I do find this:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Thessalonians 2:13[/BIBLEDRB]

They preached the Gospel, what they said was the Word of God. While I’m not saying that the Scriptures are not the word of God (they are), we cannot say that the Bible is the Gospel when the Bible didn’t exist at the time of the early Church. Yes, many writings existed, but the canon was not fully developed and closed for at least one century, if not more.

Excuse me… that is straight out of the Catechism. look it up. So that isn’t good enough either?

I give up.

 

[PRmerger]

Yay! We agree on something.

But that verse I quoted you came straght from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - SECOND EDITION​

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
“I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”

CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN

ARTICLE 2

Now… who has the poor catechism… Hmmmm

Which is why I said I had to “tweak” your comment–not that it was necessarily wrong.

Did you mean it’s from Dei Verbum, BTW?

Originally Posted by PRmerger
Actually, pesce, I’m going to have to tweak what you said above

 

[Cruxis117]

Excuse me… that is straight out of the Catechism. look it up. So that isn’t good enough either?

I give up.

I’m quite aware that it’s from the CCC, I said “the paragraph which you quoted” in my previous post. Yes, it is good enough. However, I clearly showed you that simply because we can agree on a set of words does not mean that we agree on each individual meaning of each word. Because if you just left it at the CCC paragraph, I would have completely agreed without saying anything else. But you said this:

The Gospel is the bible and it is the source of ALL saving truth!

Because of this statement, I posted what I believe was a proper rendering of what I would say if I were to agree with you, which was this:

The Gospel is contained within Sacred Scripture (the Bible) and Sacred Tradition, and is the source of all saving truth.

Now, let’s bring up the CCC paragraph you brought out:

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

Now, where does this statement support that the Bible is the Gospel? Do you know understand the meaning of my previous post? (If that last statement came across as rude, I apologize. I simply cannot find a different way of wording that.)

Furthermore, if you look at what PRmerger said, she was summing up the CCC paragraph you quoted.

Jesus is the source of ALL saving truth. Not the Bible.

Now, note what the CCC paragraph said:

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

We agree that the Gospel is the Revelation of God, it was revealed and originates from our Lord. Therefore, PRmerger was completely correct in saying that it is Jesus who is the source of ALL saving truth. Now, remember what you said:

The Gospel is the bible and it is the source of ALL saving truth!

This does not match up with the Catechism paragraph. This is why we cannot agree with you. Therefore, there is no occurance of poor catechesis in this regard.

 

[fpesce]

This is a serious discussion.

Please behave.

Come on, I bet Jesus even snickered at that…You know He does have a sense of humor. Where do you think we get it from.

And don’t ask me where that is in the bible.

 

[pablope]

Come on, I bet Jesus even snickered at that…You know He does have a sense of humor. Where do you think we get it from.

And don’t ask me where that is in the bible.

And it is because you do not know where it is in the Bible?

 

[pablope]

We are cleansed by the Blood of Jesus

.** We are made righteous by His works**.

And where is this in the Bible?

 

[Leadee]

Indeed.

But to dismiss religion because Jesus reprimanded the religious leaders is to throw the baby out with the bath water.

One does not follow the other.

Religion comes from the Latin word religiare, which means relationship. So if one wants to have a relationship with Jesus, one needs* religion.*

If we are talking about relationship that’s great but the definition of religion in my understand is based on what the dictionary today. It also says the origin of the word is -

1150–1200; Middle English religioun (< Old French religion ) < Latin religiōn- (stem of religiō ) conscientiousness, piety, equivalent to relig ( āre ) to tie, fasten ( re- re- + ligāre to bind, tie; compare ligament) + -iōn- -ion; compare rely

I don’t see the word relationship in there anywhere.

I am not saying we should throw out anything, just realize that even leaders can fall away from the truth. No matter what happens, the true church will stand because it is held together by Christ.

 

[Leadee]

Well, Catholics look to the Bible to tell us what our measuring rod for truth is.

And the Bible says that…

The *Church *is our measuring rod for truth! (See 1 Tim 3:15)

Interesting that the Bible does* not* say that Scripture is–which is what your paradigm declares. Is this not, then, a non-biblical paradigm to say that Scripture is your measuring rod?

That passage says that the church is the pillar of the truth which means it is to uphold the truth. It says nothing about it having sanction to modify it. The foundational truth of Christian belief is the good news of Jesus Christ.

 

[fpesce]

Which is why I said I had to “tweak” your comment–not that it was necessarily wrong.

Did you mean it’s from Dei Verbum, BTW?

No, of course not… I meant it as the word of God.

 

[Leadee]

The one who dies in a state of rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell. (For the teaching on venial (non-deadly) and mortal (deadly) sins, see 1 John 5:16-17) - Is this the only scripture that the doctrine of sin types is determined from or are there others?

• I must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:17, 1 Timothy 6:14, and others.

Mt 5:20 also says -" For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." That pretty much means no one will get into heaven on their own righteousness. We’re all in big trouble if this is what Jesus is really saying.

• I must be a member of God’s true church. Acts 2:46-47. -

This passage is not saying you must be in the church to be saved. That’s simply putting the cart before the horse.

• I must confess my sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9, John 20:19-23 - None of these are talking about having to confess sin to be saved.
• I must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14 , Acts 15:7.- While I believe we should heed the words of Peter, using these passages are a basis for salvation is really a stretch. The first passage is talking about one man’s experience and the second is talking about when Peter first brought the gospel to the gentiles.
• I must do unto others as I would have them do unto me and love my neighbor as myself. I must feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the sick and those in prison or give other aid to those in need. Luke 10:33 ff, Mt 25:31-46. “Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are very pleasing to God” Hebrews 13:16. Good works don’t save us, but we will be judged by them. -Yes we certainly will be judged by them but they do not earn us our salvation.

*I must strive to be holy. “Strive for peace with everyone and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” Hebrews 12:14 - This is not saying what we must do to be saved, it’s talking about what we must do to see God.
*I must endure (persevere) to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13. -

What other choice do we have? We can give up and not fight the good fight but this doesn’t mean we can’t know if we are saved until the very end. 1 John 5:13 says, " I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

[PRmerger]

If we are talking about relationship that’s great but the definition of religion in my understand is based on what the dictionary today. It also says the origin of the word is -

1150–1200; Middle English religioun (< Old French religion ) < Latin religiōn- (stem of religiō ) conscientiousness, piety, equivalent to relig ( āre ) to tie, fasten ( re- re- + ligāre to bind, tie; compare ligament) + -iōn- -ion; compare rely

I don’t see the word relationship in there anywhere.

Fair enough.

But are we agreed that it was indeed a *religion *that codified and preserved the Scriptures for you?

I am not saying we should throw out anything, just realize that even leaders can fall away from the truth.

Yes, yet did not Christ tell us in Hebrews to obey our leaders?

No matter what happens, the true church will stand because it is held together by Christ.

What “church” is this, Leadee? Where do they worship? What doctrines do they proclaim?

 

[PRmerger]

That passage says that the church is the pillar of the truth which means it is to uphold the truth.

Indeed. And don’t forget the verse says that the Church is also the** foundation** of Truth.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

It says nothing about it having sanction to modify it.

Are you under the impression that the Catholic Church has “modified” Jesus’ teachings?

Let me ask you this, Leadee: does your pastor officiate at weddings of divorced couples?

The reason I ask is because the CC has gotten much grief about her position in refusing to honor marriages of divorced couples.

However, it would seem that that Church feels that she is only the messenger of Christ’s message–she does not have the right to edit or “modify” it.

Most Christian churches, however, have taken it upon themselves to “modify” Jesus’ very plain words: if you divorce and re-marry, you commit adultery.

[BIBLEDRB]Matt 19:9[/BIBLEDRB]

The foundational truth of Christian belief is the good news of Jesus Christ.

What are these"foundational" beliefs that all Christians must agree on? And how do you know?

 

[PRmerger]

No, of course not… I meant it as the word of God.

Huh?

 

[Gracealone]

Thanks for the sum-up Leadee of those passages!
Plus I love that passage you mentioned at the end… How awesome it is!
Passage 1Jn5:11-13: (11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So awesome that the certainty of Salvation that we have is in someone other than ourselves, someone far bigger and completely perfect in righteous! It’s of massive comfort! And makes me continue to want to be more and more like Jesus - thanks God that you’re doing that in me!

 

[achildofGod]

how about Mark 7
Particularly Mark 7:7

 

[PRmerger]

how about Mark 7
Particularly Mark 7:7

Catholics give a hearty Amen! to Mark 7:7.

 

[fpesce]

I’m quite aware that it’s from the CCC, I said “the paragraph which you quoted” in my previous post. Yes, it is good enough. However, I clearly showed you that simply because we can agree on a set of words does not mean that we agree on each individual meaning of each word.

In my earlier post, I gave you the specifics of exactly where I got it. If this isn’t good enough, We can no longer have a discussion about this topic. I have shown you both in the bible and the catholic catechism that corroborate my view.

You can disagree all you want, but my work is done. Obviously you have your own opinion and I have mine. Therefore my brother in Christ. I wish you the best, may God bless you. There is no reason to be in contention. The bible also warns about that also.

Romans 2​

The Impartiality of God

** 1Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things**. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7** to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life**; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law,** are a law to themselves**, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

(fpesce) - you might think this passage coroborates your position and it does. But keep reading…

Justification by Faith

  21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He **would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. **      27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. **28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.** 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 

  31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

I could go on and on, but at this point I know your heart is hardened to your own beliefs and you will not deviate. But I post this for all other readers of this post so you may know the truth and believe. If you believe you will be saved. Those are Jesus’s word. Can’t argue with that at all.

People will say it is MY interpretation. So I encourage you to read the Word for yourself. Invite Holy Spirit to give you the revelation of truth. Don’t take my word for it. Go the the bible, go to the Catechism and read for yourself from the beginning to the end, not one quote at a time. Seriously, THIS IS FOR YOUR ETERNAL SALVATION. Don’t go by what other people of friends tell you. God gave you a mind, use it. When you arrive at heaven’s gates, it is not going to do any good to use the excuse to say you had been deceived. It’s up to you. Let the Holy Spirit of God guide you.

God bless all of your guys I have been sharing with on this forum. I truly love all in Christ’s everlasting love. I only want the best God has for you and it begins here on earth and ends in the glory of heaven.

 

[TommyWommy]

Why do Protestants insist that good works are not part of their salvation when “accepting Christ as personal Lord and Saviour” is a good work? It is an act of the will, and a prerequisite for salvation. It is something they “do.” Without that act of “doing” they remain unsaved. “Faith alone” is a faith that has been left standing by itself with no action to accompany it. There is no laying down of the nets and following Jesus with “faith alone.”

When faith enters the picture it brings along with it the following question: "Now that faith is here, what are you going to do about it? The Protestant answer is: “I’m going to say the sinner’s prayer. I’m going to accept Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour. Then I will be saved!” By so doing, they have affirmed that salvation is faith plus works, for no Protestant I have ever met will tell me they got saved by faith, period. They always add to it the need to act upon that faith by making a choice, and not leave faith standing alone in the rain all by itself. They must now DO SOMETHING! They must say the sinner’s prayer or something akin to it.

In 20+ years of being Protestant in various denominations, and 20+ years of being Catholic, I have never met a soul that was saved without including some act of “doing,” some “choice” by someone other than God in the process, a submission of the will. Protestant theology has simply narrowed down the “works” to one “work” (i.e. the sinner’s prayer or something like it).

I might even go so far as to suggest that since having faith is itself a form of surrender, that faith itself is a kind of “work” if only mentally and not bodily. Trying to divorce faith from works is futile. It’s like trying to follow Jesus while still hanging on to your fishing net.

 

[Leadee]

Think about all the early Christians. They probably never knew the reasons behind the teachings of St. Paul or St. Peter. Yet they believed. That was because they knew that the only REASONABLE thing to do if they wanted to follow Christ was to believe what his Apostles are teaching. Actually, they didn’t have much choice back then because they couldn’t read and study the bible for themselves. They no choice but to trust the overseers of the church.

 

[fhansen]

If you don’t believe the bible is His authoratative Word then you don’t really and truly believe the God of bible so what is the point of even discusing all of this?

Who said I don’t believe God’s Word is authoritative? But it’s His authority and so the authority to interpret it (actually the ability to interpret it correctly) must come from Him.

If you study church history you will understand why we came to believe that man needed to interpret God’s Word for the church but bottom line is, it was to control the masses who were uneducated. Take a look at the dark ages and the role the church played.

You mean how the Church was the one positive and stabilizing influence in that part of the world?

How can man possibly be trusted more then God?

You’ve identified the problem. But then this mistrust must apply to you and I as well. And this is why God, in His wisdom, has established a Church with offices having authority guaranteed by the Holy Spirit to correctly understand and convey His message to the world.