What must I do to be saved?

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
This is one of SATAN’s more effective half truths. Yes, you need to have faith to get to heaven and yes, you will be justified on this faith alone because you don’t need to do any good works to be baptized and enter into the state of Grace. all you need to do is request it. What Satan doesn’t say is that once you freely enter into the state of Grace, you need to do God’s will to stay there. He leads you to believe that once you declare belief in Jesus, your covenant obligations are complete, when in fact, they have just begun. We must FOLLOW Jesus, loving God and Neighbor and avoiding mortal sin (and confessing our sins if we do fall from grace), to enter into eternal life. That is the full story…

Why are you so sure that you are right and the Catholic church is wrong? And you have no idea how much I read the bible every day.

Paul wasn’t writing to the Church in Rome so that they would believe in Christ. On the Contrary. They were already believers. Here’s what Paul wrote of his purpose in Romans 1: 8 First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world.
9 God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in proclaiming the gospel of his Son, that I remember you constantly,
10 always asking in my prayers that somehow by God’s will I may at last find my way clear to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may share with you some spiritual gift so that you may be strengthened,
12 that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by one another’s faith, yours and mine.

This is a foul testimony and a slant against someone who wrote two thirds of the bible and has more works than anyone in HISTORY! Please don’t disagree just to disagree.

On the contrary. I am only clarifying for you what Paul wrote because you are deceived by others into thinking that Paul says that only Faith is required to go to heaven. He never says this and I challenge you to prove that he does. Faith alone is required to enter the state of grace, but as Paul says in 1Corinthians 13, If you have faith enough to move mountains but do not have love you are nothing.

Research the Word and history and pray for true revelation. And please don’t even rebuke my post before you do that.

Why do you feel I rebuked your post? I simply told you the truth.without malice of any kind. Why do you feel so threatened? (this is rhetorical, not to have you answer).

 

[paul_c]

Are good works absolutely necessary for salvation? I thought that one just had to die in the state of grace.

Lets be clear. by salvation do you mean going to heaven? If so, yes, all you need to do is die in the state of grace. You can enter the state of grace through baptism without doing good works. However, unless you die shortly afterwards, you are going to have to do God’s will for you to STAY in the state of grace and that will include Good works in most if not all cases.

 

[McatholicN]

Lets be clear. by salvation do you mean going to heaven? If so, yes, all you need to do is die in the state of grace. You can enter the state of grace through baptism without doing good works. However, unless you die shortly afterwards, you are going to have to do God’s will for you to STAY in the state of grace and that will include Good works in most if not all cases.

I thought the state of grace simply meant that one has no mortal sin on their soul.

Here’s some thoughts from Jimmy Akin: jimmyakin.org/2006/01/fear_of_going_t.html (Paragraphs 4-9, especially.)

 

[paul_c]

I thought the state of grace simply meant that one has no mortal sin on their soul.

Here’s some thoughts from Jimmy Akin: jimmyakin.org/2006/01/fear_of_going_t.html (Paragraphs 4-9, especially.)

Jimmy is right of course that you remain in the state of grace until you commit a mortal sin. But I think you are missing the point. We are all called to love - that is the essence of the Christian message. And love is doing things for others without expecting anything in return. As St Paul said in 1Corinthians 13, if we have faith enough to move mountains but don’t have love we are nothing. With some obvious exceptions (people who die shortly after baptism, baptized infants, etc) its pretty inconceivable that you could simultaneously avoid doing good works and also avoid commiting mortal sins. If you aren’t doing good or bad, what are you doing?

 

[fhansen]

Jimmy is right of course that you remain in the state of grace until you commit a mortal sin. But I think you are missing the point. We are all called to love - that is the essence of the Christian message. And love is doing things for others without expecting anything in return. As St Paul said in 1Corinthians 13, if we have faith enough to move mountains but don’t have love we are nothing. With some obvious exceptions (people who die shortly after baptism, baptized infants, etc) its pretty inconceivable that you could simultaneously avoid doing good works and also avoid commiting mortal sins. If you aren’t doing good or bad, what are you doing?

I think I could follow up on this a bit. The principle at work here is that mortal sin is an *act opposing love, just as the original sin was opposed to love of God. * It destroys love in our hearts, according to Church teaching. Sin and love are mutually exclusive so that, when we confess a sin with a truly contrite heart, we are now restored to grace, meaning we are changed-grace gives us the ability-the humility- to love again as we should. We are back in communion with God, restored to the path of love rather than sin.

 

[Leadee]

Having the Bible to read and study does not automatically come with the ability to properly understand and interpret the Bible. Of course not. That is why we need the Holy Spirit to give revelation. The bible is not just a book, it’s the living Word of God. That is why Peter said there are things hard to understand, and that Scripture is not subject to private interpretation. What was true then is true now: we need to follow the Church. We are told to take disputes among bretheren to the Church for a reason. What if a Methodist has a dispute with a Baptist? Which “church” do they take it to? An invisible church of believers? Makes no sense then or now.

The protestant churches may have minor differences but they all build their house on the same foundation which is Christ Jesus and the gospel of the Kingdom. Catholics sure have a screwed up perspective of the protestant church. I can understand now why they persecuted them so badly.

 

[PRmerger]

The protestant churches may have minor differences but they all build their house on the same foundation which is Christ Jesus and the gospel of the Kingdom. Catholics sure have a screwed up perspective of the protestant church. **I can understand now why they persecuted them so badly. **

Be careful, Leadee. You must be respectful of Catholicism here on the CAFs and not insult your hosts.

Just a friendly warning. It is good for you to be here and discuss the Faith with Catholics, so I wouldn’t like to see you banned or suspended.

At any rate, what exactly are these beliefs that all Christians agree are essential doctrines, and what are the non-essential ones? And how do you know?

 

[ddarko]

The protestant churches may have minor differences but they all build their house on the same foundation which is Christ Jesus and the gospel of the Kingdom. Catholics sure have a screwed up perspective of the protestant church. I can understand now why they persecuted them so badly.

The problem still is you haven’t explained how you got from Resurrection of Christ to Protestantism RATIONALLY.

Because if you have no RATIONAL foundation on how you got there, it really doesn’t matter if you have differences or don’t have differences. It’s just speculation based on a random book you happened to pick.

God Bless

 

[paul_c]

The protestant churches may have minor differences but they all build their house on the same foundation which is Christ Jesus and the gospel of the Kingdom. Catholics sure have a screwed up perspective of the protestant church. I can understand now why they persecuted them so badly.

You are right in that Christians (which includes Catholics) have more in common with each other than they have in opposition. We tend to focus on the differences rather than common ground because where there is difference in understanding, there is error. As for persecution, it unfortunately happened on all sides. There were plenty of Catholic Martyrs at the hands of Protestants over the last 500 years as well.

Let me run a very simple test with you. What do you think a Protestant believes or does toward their salvation that a devout Catholic doesn’t also do?

You believe in the saving power of Jesus, right? So do we.
You believe in the power of prayer, so do we.
You read the bible, so do we.
You do good works, so do we.

So what separates us? Probably basically two things:

1. the belief in the efficacy of the sacraments to impart grace.
2. Our trust in the Pope and the magesterium to guide us to Jesus.

 

[davidmlamb]

QUOTE=paul c;8126802]Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord…

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all* sin. 1 John 1:5-7***

QUOTE=paul c;8126802]John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us [Christians], on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!
1 Corinthians 10:11-12

QUOTE=paul c;8126802]Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

*For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2:10 *

QUOTE=paul c;8126802]Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;’.

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 1 John 3:6-8

QUOTE=paul c;8126802]Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

James 2:14-17
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

QUOTE=paul c;8126802]Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

James 2:21-24

*Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. *

The Bible is teaching the Catholic faith and no other gospel!

Peace,
David

 

[McatholicN]

Jimmy is right of course that you remain in the state of grace until you commit a mortal sin. But I think you are missing the point. We are all called to love - that is the essence of the Christian message. And love is doing things for others without expecting anything in return. As St Paul said in 1Corinthians 13, if we have faith enough to move mountains but don’t have love we are nothing. With some obvious exceptions (people who die shortly after baptism, baptized infants, etc) its pretty inconceivable that you could simultaneously avoid doing good works and also avoid commiting mortal sins. If you aren’t doing good or bad, what are you doing?

Are you saying that good works are necessary for salvation when a lack of them constitutes mortal sin?

 

[paul_c]

Are you saying that good works are necessary for salvation when a lack of them constitutes mortal sin?

Well there are clearly sins of omission as well as sins of commission so it is very possible that not doing the good works we are called to do can result in mortal sin.

But lets face the simple reality. We are called to love. If you aren’t doing works of love, you are not living out your faith. God will judge us fairly and accurately and it won’t be according to an accounting formula. If you have no intention of doing his will, he will know that. Strive to love God and man in everything you do - only then will you achieve holiness.

 

[davidmlamb]

Leadee: Excellent! You nailed it pretty well. We must remember that the gospel is hidden to them that are lost. Whom the god [small ‘g’] of this age has blinded them to the true gospel. 2 Cor. 4:3,4. Also, the natural man [the lost man] can not understand spiritual matters, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14. It is natural for man to think that he must “do something” in order to be saved. Mr. Dandy, previously, presented a laundry list of things that a lost person must do. And you are quite correct in stating that the lost man is “dead in trespasses and sins.” He is spiritually dead ands fits the description of 2 Cor. 4:2,3.
Grace and Peace,
Don J.
1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 1:13

DOING SOMETHING FOR CHRIST IN ORDER TO BE SAVED

*24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. --Matthew 16:24-25

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
–Galatians 5:24-25

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling --Philippians 2:12

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love** is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
–1 John 2:3-6

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ --Matthew 7:21-23

4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels…15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. --Revelation 3***

The Bible is teaching the Catholic faith and no other gospel!

Peace,
David

 

[fpesce]

Sure, progression yes. But in the end, one without the other is moot. Do you agree?

In other words, if one lived their entire life, and all they had was FAITH (in the sense of a mental belief), then they get nowhere.

God Bless

Very true. With faith you must cast off the “old man” and live in the “new creation” in Christ Jesus. This means you are one in Christ Jesus. Just as Jesus said, He does nothing that He doesn’t see the Father do first.

Jesus and the Father are one. So likewise when we are saved we become a new creation and are joined to Jesus and have become one. Therefore, we die to our old selves and live to do only what we see Jesus do first.

So, doing the will of Jesus, which is the will of God is our highest priority. This (conforming our lives to the perfect will of God) does not happen immediately as soon as we make our commitment to Christ. Like I explained in my earlier post.

So in the sense that doing the will of God is good works and is very important, I agree.

But

Once you make the decision to give your life for Jesus. That is to believe in Him and His sacrifice for us. We are “born again” in spirit and have been joined to Jesus. At this point We are saved. As long as we do not reject Jesus and His teachings we will remain that way.

Then we learn the will of the Father and change our lives for His purpose to save all mankind and give glory to God.

Since doing this is a progression, it bears the fact we will fall into sin because of our old habits. As long as we are faithful to acknowledge our sin and repent we grow in the Fathers will and we become more and more mature christians.

Our Faith grows, our love grows and our works grow. We become spiritaully minded.

 

[PRmerger]

At this point We are saved. As long as we do not reject Jesus and His teachings we will remain that way.

We ought not judge ourselves as saved. We may not be aware of anything against ourselves, but that does not mean we are acquitted. It is the LORD who judges us.

 

[Leadee]

The object of all Catholics’ faith ought to be Jesus, Leadee. That is a teaching of the CC.

However, to separate Jesus from His Body, the Church, is to serve a decapitated Christ. One cannot have faith in only His Head, without having faith in His Body.

No one is seperating Jesus from the body. He is the head of the body, the head of the church, it’s not the other way around. He is the cornerstone, the Rock, and the foundation of the church is on the Truth that He is the Son of the Living God.

If I recall correctly, whole idea of the church leaders being infalable (however, we already know that not all of them were not or are not) comes from the church getting the idea that Truth was built on Peter (petro) but it was not built on the church but on the petros which is the red highlighted in the passage.

Mat 16: 16-18 - Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon [k]Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are Peter(petros-rock), and upon this rock(petra-cliff or large stone) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

But I don’t expect any catholic to respect that interpretation, even though it’s irrefutable when you look at the original hebrew text that there are two different words used there for rock. Apparently somewhere along the way the infallable men of God decided that God changed his mind and really meant something else or he made a mistake in the original text of the bible when Jesus spoke those words and Jesus really meant to say that the church is built on Peter and not the truth of who He is Himself.

 

[PRmerger]

No one is seperating Jesus from the body. He is the head of the body, the head of the church, it’s not the other way around. He is the cornerstone, the Rock, and the foundation of the church is on the Truth that He is the Son of the Living God.

Amen!

If I recall correctly, whole idea of the church leaders being infalable (however, we already know that not all of them were not or are not) comes from the church getting the idea that Truth was built on Peter (petro)

No, the Church does not get its teaching on infallibility from that “idea”, but from the Word of God: Scripture and Tradition.

ILet me ask you this, Leadee: does your pastor officiate at weddings of divorced couples?

Leadee, I know that this thread is moving fast, but I’m wondering if you could address the above question?

And this one, too:

What are these"foundational" beliefs that all Christians must agree on? And how do you know?

 

[CaptCrunch73]

But I don’t expect any catholic to respect that interpretation, even though it’s irrefutable when you look at the original hebrew text that there are two different words used there for rock. Apparently somewhere along the way the infallable men of God decided that God changed his mind and really meant something else or he made a mistake in the original text of the bible when Jesus spoke those words and Jesus really meant to say that the church is built on Peter and not the truth of who He is Himself.

Irrefutable? Try reading this link, Peter the Rock.

 

[Tomster]

The protestant churches may have minor differences but they all build their house on the same foundation which is Christ Jesus and the gospel of the Kingdom. Catholics sure have a screwed up perspective of the protestant church. I can understand now why they persecuted them so badly.

Leadee,

Are you aware that Protestantism is a generic name for those forms of Christianity derived from the teachings (oral tradition) of those who revolted from the Catholic Church in the sixteenth century and for the principles characteristic of them?

These were chiefly:
(1) the sufficiency and supremacy of the Bible as the sole rule of faith. (a big error)

(2) the dependence of salvation solely on the merits of Christ or justification by faith alone. (another big error)

(3) predestination to Heaven or Hell. (another error)

(4) the universal priesthood of all believers as an opposition to the divine appointment of an ordained priesthood. (another error)

(5) a right to private interpretation of doctrine in general and the Bible in particular. (a major whopper)

These are just for starters.

You say the Protestant churches have minor differences. Really?

Just consider point #5 alone and, if you are really honest, you can see why Protestantism has fragmented into countless denominations all claiming to be the true Church of Christ.

 

[McatholicN]

Well there are clearly sins of omission as well as sins of commission so it is very possible that not doing the good works we are called to do can result in mortal sin.

But lets face the simple reality. We are called to love. If you aren’t doing works of love, you are not living out your faith. God will judge us fairly and accurately and it won’t be according to an accounting formula. If you have no intention of doing his will, he will know that. Strive to love God and man in everything you do - only then will you achieve holiness.

Of course we are called to love! I’m just wondering here how good works fit into salvation.

Here’s my current understanding of salvation (please correct me if I’m wrong):
Baptism brings you into the state of grace. This can be lost later on by committing a mortal sin, but can be forgiven, bringing the sinner back into the state of grace. If one dies in the state of grace they will go to Heaven, although Purgatory is often necessary.

Is this the full understanding of salvation?