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ddarko
Guest
Here’s a question to you. Given that Paul wasn’t even one of the 12, how did you know that he had authority?
Even better, how do you know that Mark, Luke had their authority to write 2 of the gospels?
God Bless
D
davidmlamb
Guest
Quickcat, I appreciate your pitty, I guess I’ll go back to my college now…
I simply requested that you clarify what you are arguing and twice you evaded answering me by giving me a mixed bag of biblical exegesis which does not clarify your point and now a third time you evade the question by deliberately insulting me. Anyone including yourself who has spent anytime reading my posts knows that I am familiar with the scriptures and Christian doctrine. The bible say’s “Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.” (1 Pet 3:15)Instead you have resorted to subtle insults. What kind of witness is that? A “mature Christian” is one who conducts himself with virtue. Smugness is not a virtue it is a vice.
I am familiar with Paul’s Episltle to the Romans and I am aware that Paul was a member of the Jewish Senhedrin and a Pharisee. I also understand that the Kingdom of God was intrusted to the children of Abraham by virtue of the covenant God made with Abraham. And finally I understand that the Law was given to Moses who was a desendent of Abraham. But the question is what constitutes a Jew? Is it circumcision done with hands, or is one a Jew by faith in God?
One is a Jew not by the circumcision done with hands but with the circumscision done to the heart. One is a jew by faith which moved them to circumscision just like one is a Christian by faith which moves them to the sacrament of baptism. Salvation was always meant for the entire human race but the God of all creation revealed himself to Abraham whom he made a covenant promise with. The Nation of Israel is the children of Abraham but not because they were circumscised alone, but because they believed. Hence Abraham believed God and it was credited to Him as righteousness. During the time of Abraham and the time of Moses any Gentile (which means “other nations”) could become a Jew by first believing and then by virtue of that faith moved to the covenant of circumcision.
That is what Jesus meant when he said, “salvation is of the Jews.” Jesus was testing the faith of the woman just as he was testing the faith of the Canaanite woman when He said, “it is not good to take the childrens bread and toss it to the dogs.” Her response was “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” Jesus saw this was great faith and granted her request. Her request was granted not because she recognized herself as a “low life” Canaanite woman, but because she had faith in God. All those who are united to Christ are grafted into the tree. The tree being Israel.
End of Part I
Peace,
David…
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davidmlamb
Guest
PART II
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven. Mathew 16:17-19
The Keys to the kingdom of God have been transferred from Israel to the Church. The Sacraments of the Church are the fullilment of the Law because the SACRAMENTS are the efficacy of Christ SACRAFICE. The Holy of Holies was a shadow of the Eucharist and the Eucharist is the fulfilment of the Law because the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper. The manna that came from heaven which fed the children of Israel for 40 years was a shadow of the Eucharist
…unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” John 6:53-58
John Writes:
*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it…He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. John 1:1-14
*
The Word of God became flesh! That flesh is the bread of life! Th Eucharist is Christ physical presense on Earth, the Holy of Holies! This is the sacrament of the Altar, the Sacrafice of Christ on the cross made efficious by bread and wine that when concecrated become the body and blood of Christ…
Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; THIS IS MY BODY” … Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. THIS IS MY BLOOD of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:27-28
Finally we read;
Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.
Jesus took the keys of the Kingdom from israel and gave it to His Church and made Peter the visible head of the Church, the Pastor of Christ Church and commanded Him to FEED the sheep. Peter feeds the sheep the Word of God manifested in 3 forms, the Word of God made flesh, the Word of God in written tradition AND Oral Tradition (2 Thess 2:15). It is the Church which speaks the wisdom of God (Ephs 3:10) and is the Pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Salvation came from the Jews but now comes from the Church which dispenses the SACRAFICE of God made flesh through the SACRAMENTS for the salvation of those who believe and enter the Ark of the Covenant…the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth!
To Him be the glory in the Church and in Christ jesus throughout all genrations forever and ever AMEN!
Super Saved Catholic Dave
Here is something you don’t understand Quickcat. The Key to Kingdom of God was transfered from Israel to the Church because of Israel’s rejection of Christ. Hence we read:
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven. Mathew 16:17-19
The Keys to the kingdom of God have been transferred from Israel to the Church. The Sacraments of the Church are the fullilment of the Law because the SACRAMENTS are the efficacy of Christ SACRAFICE. The Holy of Holies was a shadow of the Eucharist and the Eucharist is the fulfilment of the Law because the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper. The manna that came from heaven which fed the children of Israel for 40 years was a shadow of the Eucharist
…unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” John 6:53-58
John Writes:
*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it…He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. John 1:1-14
*
The Word of God became flesh! That flesh is the bread of life! Th Eucharist is Christ physical presense on Earth, the Holy of Holies! This is the sacrament of the Altar, the Sacrafice of Christ on the cross made efficious by bread and wine that when concecrated become the body and blood of Christ…
Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; THIS IS MY BODY” … Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. THIS IS MY BLOOD of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:27-28
Finally we read;
Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.
Jesus took the keys of the Kingdom from israel and gave it to His Church and made Peter the visible head of the Church, the Pastor of Christ Church and commanded Him to FEED the sheep. Peter feeds the sheep the Word of God manifested in 3 forms, the Word of God made flesh, the Word of God in written tradition AND Oral Tradition (2 Thess 2:15). It is the Church which speaks the wisdom of God (Ephs 3:10) and is the Pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Salvation came from the Jews but now comes from the Church which dispenses the SACRAFICE of God made flesh through the SACRAMENTS for the salvation of those who believe and enter the Ark of the Covenant…the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth!
To Him be the glory in the Church and in Christ jesus throughout all genrations forever and ever AMEN!
Super Saved Catholic Dave
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davidmlamb
Guest
Oh Good so now we know that 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith are the Word of God
Peace,
David
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PRmerger
Guest
Of course, this prompts the question: how do we know what’s the Word of God, except by an outside authority?
Just because something says, “These things I write are inspired” does not make it theopneustos, no? For does not the Koran claim to be inspired?
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, and so does the Koran. So saying something is inspired does not make it so.
How you know what’s INSPIRED, is when the Catholic Church discerns it to be.
Except, QuickCat, there were over 400 ancient texts that were written in the earliest centuries, and you would not know which of these manuscripts are inspired and which are not…
[SIGN]except by the authority of the Catholic Church![/SIGN]
All Scripture is, indeed, inspired. But the question is, “What belongs in Scripture?”
Is this Scripture: “My breath is offensive to my wife.”
What about this: “Thou causest to err thereby whomever Thou pleasest and guidest whomever Thou pleasest…”
And how do you know? Just by reading it?
Or did someone else–some infallible men, inspired by the Holy Spirit–discern which is inspired (the answer: the first is from the book of Job, and is thus inspired, the second is from the Koran, and thus is not inspired).?
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Julia_Mae
Guest
That’s why they are included in the 1611 King James Version of the Holy Bible, I guess!
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seniyajw
Guest
If individual human reason could not acquire certain of the grounds of faith, the existence of God, the immortality of the soul, free will and so on, or accept the reasons of credibility, the Catholic Church , the pillar and bulwark of truth, he will appeal in vain for an unbelieving world.
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Leadee
Guest
None of the things listed above are requirements for salvation. I can see why you look down so strongly on protestants. You got burned there. I know many who were burned badly in the catholic church as well. The bottom line is, it’s not about anything we do or don’t do in our own efforts, whether it’s catholic or protestant, it’s about what Jesus did.
It’s not only catholic’s that rely on some level of works for salvation, so do some protestants (probably most). It just means that at some level you still feel judged and condemned by God so either Jesus pays for your sins or you do. Religion says - strive, work harder. Christianity says - rest, I’ve done it for you. When Jesus says, “Take my Yolk” he not only means to learn from Him but also to learn what’s been done for you. Jesus is both the Judge and The Judged so he is both Judge and Justifier. It’s understandable why some wrestle with this because without judgement there is no rest because we know that God is perfectly just and this demands payment for sin. This is why God had to send His only Son, so that the price for justice could be met in Him.
Whether catholic or otherwise, my hope is that those who love God will ultimatly understand the freedom that they can truly have in Jesus Christ.
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PRmerger
Guest
And what is “required for salvation”? Must one be baptized? Must one go to church? Must one read the Bible?
How do you know what’s “required”, and please cite your bible verses.
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Leadee
Guest
We’re talking about justification, being made right before God so these verses explain how we are justified, which is through Jesus Christ.
Here are some:
Romans 3:28-30 says - “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
Romans 4:5 - But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Romans 5:1 - “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Romans 10:4 - “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
Romans 11:6 - But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Galatians 2:16 -“nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
Galatans 2:21 - I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Galatians 3:5-6 - I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Galatians 3:24 - “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
Ephesians 2:8-9 -"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man
Phillipians 3:9 - “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”
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ddarko
Guest
Leadee,
So I presume your point from the above is that we are saved by “Faith alone apart from works”, right?
Now here lies the problem Leadee. First there are verses in the Bible that say otherwise like
“For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.” - James 2:26
So your interpretation does not seem to fit the entire Bible.
SECONDLY, let us for the sake of argument say that you can somehow account for the passages that speak about the importance of works like James 2:26.
But what you have is merely ONE logically consistent interpretation. The Catholics have another. The Mormons have another etc. So how do you know who is right?
What I am telling you Leadee is that whether you are justified by faith alone or faith and works is not really the issue you should be debating. You can’t prove either is correct merely based on Scripture. With a little imagination and creativity, one can fit any view/interpretation in to Scripture.
So this debate actually lies outside of Scripture. As long as you stay in Scripture, you will never see the error because you are only judging the merit of your view based on LOGICAL consistency with the rest of Scripture. But that is no indicator of TRUTH. Do you understand what I am saying here? Logical consistency of a view is not an indicator that something is true.
Therefore, you have to go back to history and REASON to find out which religion/Christianity is true. So I really think that most Catholics here are engaged in a futile exercise by giving you Scripture quote after quote. All that’s happening here is each side is merely explaining why their view is logically consistent. BUT, that does not justify either side’s view as TRUE.
To find the truth, you have to first set aside Scripture as a theological text. At best, you can use it as a historical account. THEN, you have to use REASON to discover Christianity.
I can tell you, as someone who did this that unfortunately Protestants haven’t done this. If all Christians actually sat down and did this analysis, we would all be united under the Catholic Church. But, we live in an imperfect world. Since you seem to be a honest seeker of Christ, it is your RESPONSIBILITY to correct this error. Change starts with YOU.
So stop throwing Scripture verses around and get to the heart of the matter. Otherwise we can go at this till eternity and neither side will see any error.
Please let me know if it is not clear why logical consistency does not indicate whether something is TRUE.
You have also not answered my previous post to you.
God Bless
D
davidmlamb
Guest
Leadee, I have filled in and made emphasis in the scripture passages you truncated in order to put them in their proper context. This should help you understand the bible correctly. Clearly now we can see that what Paul is referring to is the works of the Mosaic Law in the flesh which were required in order to obtain righteousness. Paul is pointing out that the Jews and the Gentiles are no longer subject to the Mosaic Law with its WORKS of the flesh such as circumcision, ceremonial washings, the observance of new moons Sabbath Days ect… (Colossians 2:16-17). This Covenant has been set aside for a new and better covenant making the Law of Moses Obsolete (Hebrews 8)
Therefore, we are saved by grace through faith which empowers us to good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do (Matt 25:14-46). Therefore, denying ourselves, taking up or crosses and following Christ (Matt 16:24) is a matter of working out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12) as we are justified by the good works God has called us to do and not by faith alone (James 2:24). That Leadee is Bible ONLY as the bible is teaching the Catholic faith and no other gospel!
Peace,
David
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Leadee, We show our love of God by our faith and our love of neighbor by our works. Both are required for salvation. See Mt 25:31-46 and James 2:24, among many other verses in Scripture.
And, as I always remind you and others, the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. That is history. That cannot be denied. Christ founded the Church; the Church in turn wrote the NT and compiled and named the Bible. If you would pay attention to the beginning of each ‘book,’ you would see that the NT was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics. It was not written for those outside the Church. It is not a systematic instruction book in Christianity, as Protestants – you included – try to make it. The NT is the written record of the spiritual live of the newborn Catholic Church for the first 50 years or so after she was founded by Jesus Christ.
Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher and guaranteed that she would teach the TRUTH always. He never instructed anyone to write anything. The NT can’t be understood correctly unless it’s read in the context of the believing, teaching Church who wrote it.
Jim Dandy
And, as I always remind you and others, the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. That is history. That cannot be denied. Christ founded the Church; the Church in turn wrote the NT and compiled and named the Bible. If you would pay attention to the beginning of each ‘book,’ you would see that the NT was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics. It was not written for those outside the Church. It is not a systematic instruction book in Christianity, as Protestants – you included – try to make it. The NT is the written record of the spiritual live of the newborn Catholic Church for the first 50 years or so after she was founded by Jesus Christ.
Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher and guaranteed that she would teach the TRUTH always. He never instructed anyone to write anything. The NT can’t be understood correctly unless it’s read in the context of the believing, teaching Church who wrote it.
Jim Dandy
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Julia_Mae
Guest
I also like to include Saint Paul, in Romans 2:5-8
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart,you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
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ddarko
Guest
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Matthew_P_Muehl
Guest
That pretty much nails it J.D.
Great post…
May God bless you and yours always…
Matthew
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PRmerger
Guest
And what of all the other verses in Scripture, Leadee?
They are not “required” for our salvation?
For example: take 1 Peter 3:21. Is this verse one that can be dismissed?
Or Malachi 1:11?
And how do you know which verses are the essentials?
Must one be baptized in order to be saved? And how do you know?
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Matthew_P_Muehl
Guest
This is a classic example of Sola Scriptura ! Cherry pick what you want from the Bible and omit what does not fit ones personal interpretation or ideology.
Lets create a Christ from the Bible i can agree with!
Matthew
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